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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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Rare Truth said:
So when he was being "bashed repeatedly" - he wasn't on his back?

When that bloody head contact was made with the cement, repeatedly, he wasn't on his back?

When Witness 6 thinks he may have been holding him down, he wasn't on his back?
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You have access to exactly the same information, arrange it in whatever order you need to, and make it fit whatever purpose you want.

I'm going with Zimmerman was on his back, Martin was on top, until the shooting... at which point, a bleeding Zimmerman got on top to allegedly hold Martin's arms down.

If you have the medical wherewithal to prove that almost 1" head lacerations close too quickly for the blood to drip down in that scenario, share it. It would be useful.

If you have something reliable to support the notion that pictures are faked, medical reports are fraudulent, and so forth, produce it.

If you have something other than speculation to show that Zimmerman was never on the bottom, it would be good to see proof of that.

Otherwise, I'll stick to a more moderated approach to filling in the blanks.
 
Originally Posted by crimresearch
Nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe remaining on his back. He does describe being face down immediately *after* shooting Martin.

What point are you trying to make?
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Originally Posted by Rare Truth
So when he was being "bashed repeatedly" - he wasn't on his back?

When that bloody head contact was made with the cement, repeatedly, he wasn't on his back?

When Witness 6 thinks he may have been holding him down, he wasn't on his back?
Click to expand...
crimresearch said:
You have access to exactly the same information, arrange it in whatever order you need to, and make it fit whatever purpose you want.

I'm going with Zimmerman was on his back, Martin was on top, until the shooting... at which point, a bleeding Zimmerman got on top to allegedly hold Martin's arms down.

If you have the medical wherewithal to prove that almost 1" head lacerations close too quickly for the blood to drip down in that scenario, share it. It would be useful.

If you have something reliable to support the notion that pictures are faked, medical reports are fraudulent, and so forth, produce it.

If you have something other than speculation to show that Zimmerman was never on the bottom, it would be good to see proof of that.

Otherwise, I'll stick to a more moderated approach to filling in the blanks.
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I'm really trying to make sense of this reply, and I admit, I cannot.

There is no implication the medical records or pictures were faked.

The problem is with Z's version of how it happened. The evidence does not support HIS statements.
 
Cylinder said:
You mean the part of DeeDee's statement where she claims Martin confronted Zimmerman -you know, like Zimmerman himself claims?
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For starters, Deedee didn't say Martin confronted Zimmerman. That's just your version.

Secondly, I didn't use the word "confronted", I used the word "instigated".

And to say someone who asks the person following them "Why are you following me?" is an instigation is a particularly convenient interpretation of events.
 
Cylinder said:
You mean the part of DeeDee's statement where she claims Martin confronted Zimmerman -you know, like Zimmerman himself claims?
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Well,no. DeeDee claims that Martin was chased, and that Zimmerman closed in on Martin. Honestly, Zimmerman's walk through has little to do with DeeDee vor with Zimmerman's 911 call.
 
Unabogie said:
Sometimes I think we spend all our time here parsing obvious language and arguing over word definitions.

If he grants bond, even though George refused to testify unless he could avoid being cross examined, then it wasn't as important as he said it would be.

When you say "at that time, it will be important for your client to explain himself" and then he doesn't do it, it's up to you to enforce your authority. If he doesn't then it wasn't as important as he claimed and I believe he will have lost some control of his courtroom in that case.
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$1,000,000 bond. Since the judge knows GZ has >> 100k in 'found money', he feels that bail is reasonable.

So, we conclude it was not terribly important for GZ to testify ?
 
Rare Truth said:
I'm really trying to make sense of this reply, and I admit, I cannot.

There is no implication the medical records or pictures were faked.

The problem is with Z's version of how it happened. The evidence does not support HIS statements.
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The evidence, after being misreported and spun by the media to the extent this case has been, isn't going to support anybody's statements.

Randomly picking out of context snippets and implying that someone claimed when he was being "bashed repeatedly" - he wasn't on his back, isn't correct, or useful. The clear and logical deduction is that the pictures accurately showed what happened, and they *do* support his statements

Science tells us that eyewitnesses during traumatic events are inconstent for a variety of reasons that are not dishonest.
That makes the assumption that finding or creating inconsistencies in the reports of someone who was in the middle of the traumatic situation, somehow proves dishonesty, not a logical one.

And ignoring the actual law in order to build a specious framework proving 'internet guilt' is irrelevant.

As I said, people are free to start from whatever prejudgement they have, and massage the data to fit whatever conclusion they need to arrive at... but that isn't my thing.
 
TheL8Elvis said:
$1,000,000 bond. Since the judge knows GZ has >> 100k in 'found money', he feels that bail is reasonable.

So, we conclude it was not terribly important for GZ to testify ?
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I can conclude that Judge Lester just lost a micro-contest with O'Mara. But in the end, yes, George got away with it, and Judge Lester did not make this the hill to die on.

But can we all conclude that George did what we all know he did? He went into his first bond hearing and claimed to be broke when he wasn't? That he conspired with his wife to hide money? That he allowed his wife to commit perjury?

Or must we pretend that the month he spent in jail and the $1M bond is par for the course and the judge believed his excuses?
 
LTC8K6 said:
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12070510360.pdf

Order setting bail at $1M.

Does not read well for GZ at all.
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How does it not read well for GZ? Not attempting to be snarky here, but all I see there is a dispassionate legal representation of exactly what took place. He tears apart the notion that GZ's was some innocent scared player in all of this, so if that's what you mean it doesn't read well, but what were you expecting? However he says nothing of relevance about the case itself.

I'd say it reads very, VERY well for GZ, insofar as he's letting him out, even after he deceived the court.
 
LTC8K6 said:
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12070510360.pdf

Order setting bail at $1M.

Does not read well for GZ at all.
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Yeesh.

Judge found that George was likely planning to take the money and run. He also specifically calls out the valid passport in the safe deposit box. It was the ankle bracelet that kept him from running, according to the judge.

He also seems to have placed a bunch more restrictions on old George. No leaving Seminole County, can't set foot in the airport. No alcohol. Can't open or maintain a bank account.

Yeah, this guy's account of that night should sure carry weight, huh?
 
TheL8Elvis said:
$1,000,000 bond. Since the judge knows GZ has >> 100k in 'found money', he feels that bail is reasonable.
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Yes, so he can obviously come up with the 10%. But it doesn't sound like he's going to be able to come up with the 1M, which I assumed he would in a post I made a few minutes ago, if said post gets approved.

So it looks like good old George outwitted himself right back into jail for quite a while with his brilliant strategy.
 
Unabogie said:
I think according to the autopsy:

http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2012/05/evidence-released-in-trayvon-martin-case

Trayvon was 5'11, 158 pounds.

So to quibble, that's 3.5 inches shorter but 46 pounds heavier.
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Noted. And not at all a quibble. It's an important detail that was the subject of no small amount of controversy.

And now that all the facts are in, it's plain to see Zimmerman is quite a bit more physically imposing than Martin.

Based on that, it's fair to say Martin might have had reason to fear Zimmerman.
 
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