Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

As you know, nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe being lifted by his heels and held upside down for any signifigant period of time.

Where are you getting that?

 

[This is The End]

Actually, the blood would never have been expected to flow straight down if Zimmerman remained in his shooting position. The dogwalk has a distinct grade and Zimmerman's head ended upslope of his feet - nearest the sidewalk. W6 describes the altercation as being roughly parallel to the sidewalk and ending perpendicular.

[qimg]http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/Cylinder1967/dogwalk.jpg[/qimg]

As you know, nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe being lifted by his heels and held upside down for any signifigant period of time.

But it would still go from the back of his head to the ground, no matter what the grade.... (unless it was over 45 degrees or something crazy like that...)

And from the reenactment video the area looks pretty flat to me.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...0703_1_bond-motion-county-courthouse-teenager

SANFORD – The judge in George Zimmerman's second-degree murder case said Tuesday that he expects to rule Thursday on whether to release the defendant or keep him locked up in the Seminole County Jail.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. made the announcement at the close of his afternoon court session.

He has begun drafting the order, he told the nearly-empty courtroom, and expects to file it Thursday.

Well that's going to be interesting.

He said 8 hours at noon on Friday and finished at the "close of his afternoon court session". So either he had lots of other work, or this took more time that he thought.

 

[johnny karate]

We are left waiting on the SA to produce a viable scenario that fits all the witnesses statements and proves murder 2.

This isn't too difficult a needle to thread. Crucial parts of Zimmerman's account aren't corroborated.

A scenario in which he instigated the altercation, wasn't punched repeatedly, didn't have his head repeatedly bashed onto the ground, and wasn't legitimately in fear for his life are supported by just as much evidence as Zimmerman's version of these events.

 

[tsig]

Actually, the blood would never have been expected to flow straight down if Zimmerman remained in his shooting position. The dogwalk has a distinct grade and Zimmerman's head ended upslope of his feet - nearest the sidewalk. W6 describes the altercation as being roughly parallel to the sidewalk and ending perpendicular.

[qimg]http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/Cylinder1967/dogwalk.jpg[/qimg]

As you know, nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe being lifted by his heels and held upside down for any signifigant period of time.

He does, however, describe being on his back when the wounds occurred.

 

[Cylinder]

So how can we explain the similarities in the statements who were uncertain and didn't see much?

How do we reconcile their similarity to Zimmerman's account?

 

[Cylinder]

Going back to the claim of lack of blood on Martin's hands, after rereading the ME report, there's no mention of external blood at all - even in the area around the gunshot wound.

 

[bookworm]

So you also don't give credence to his own racist ranting on his mySpace page? And I'm sure you also disregard the fact that he only seems to call the police on black males?

1. He only calls the police on black males or almost predominantly on black males.
2. He ranted on his mySpace page about Mexicans with knives, which is racist by any standard, is it not?
3. His ex-girlfriend, who knows him better than Frank Taffe, says he is, and was willing to go to the police and testify so. And ask Shellie Zimmerman how smart it is to lie under oath.

And so with all of that, you find it easy to dismiss the issue? So what evidence would suffice beyond racist writings, and a person close to him saying he is?

No, I don't find it easy to dismiss the issue, actually. You do have some good points that argue he may be racist. I just think there are just as many that argue he isn't. The only support for it that I find credible is the MySpace page and that's just as relevant as TM's internet postings. His ex-girlfriend is very arguably just an ex with a grudge. Maybe he only called the police on black males because that was all he saw? Is the list of his 911 calls complete? Is it possible calls were left out to support the charge?

 

[Cylinder]

He does, however, describe being on his back when the wounds occurred.

Right, so you'd expect some of the blood to flow downhill. It's not all going to flow onto the ground, if that's what you mean. I mean, pour water on your arm. Put it at an angle and watch the water. Some will fall off in drops and some will drip down through surface tension.

 

[triforcharity]

Some interesting stuff from the medical report:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/99022693/George-Zimmerman-Medical-Report

Sorry if this has been covered but we're all behind because of the moderation.

1. His nose was "likely broken". But he never went to the ENT guy, did they? So no xray or anything.

No need to really. Without a deviated septum, there isn't much anyone could do. Kinda a "take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning" kinda thing.

2. Weird, but his doctor wrote out George's side of the story in detail, including that he was viciously assaulted but discharged his legally carried weapon and killed that thug. Is that normal for a medical report from a family doctor?

That's somewhat......odd.

3. His doctor called him "white". So, does George call himself that when he fills out forms? Seems so.

Agreed.

4. The extent of his injuries, according to his own doctor, was two cuts on the back of his head ~2 centimeters long that didn't need stitches or even a bandage, and a sore nose.

Yep. Translations "Take 2 Aspirin and call me in the morning. Keep the wound clean and dry as best you can. "

 

[crimresearch]

Actually, the blood would never have been expected to flow straight down if Zimmerman remained in his shooting position. The dogwalk has a distinct grade and Zimmerman's head ended upslope of his feet - nearest the sidewalk. W6 describes the altercation as being roughly parallel to the sidewalk and ending perpendicular.

[qimg]http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/Cylinder1967/dogwalk.jpg[/qimg]

As you know, nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe being lifted by his heels and held upside down for any signifigant period of time.

Nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe remaining on his back. He does describe being face down immediately *after* shooting Martin.

What point are you trying to make?

 

[johnny karate]

So how can we explain the similarities in the statements who were uncertain and didn't see much?

How do we reconcile their similarity to Zimmerman's account?

I don't see how it's a problem reconciling witness accounts with a belief that Zimmerman is lying.

No one saw Martin attack Zimmerman. No one saw Martin punch him repeatedly. No one saw Martin repeatedly bash his head on the ground. No one saw Martin reach for Zimmeman's gun.

So what witness account can specifically corroborate Zimmerman's self-defense claim?

 

[Unabogie]

So how can we explain the similarities in the statements who were uncertain and didn't see much?

How do we reconcile their similarity to Zimmerman's account?

They saw Trayvon circling his car? They saw him standing on Retreat View? They saw him walking back to his truck and being attacked? They saw George take one punch and go down at the T? They saw Trayvon attack for no reason? No, none of them saw any of that.

Maybe they don't corroborate his story so much as that he came to understand what they saw and adjusted his story to match?

They saw two people fighting on the ground. They are unsure of who was on top. They are unsure of who was yelling. One of them saw a person running from the areas south of the murder scene heading north. One of them heard angry arguing. They all heard the shot.

I predict that at trial they will all claim to be less than 100% sure about most of this and will point out that it was dark and rainy. I predict there will not be a witness who backs George with 100% certainty about any of it.

And then he'll just be left with his implausible story and contradictory statements to police.

"We have his statements, we have shell casings, we have the body".

By the way, that link I posted shows the distance from the T to the body was 55 feet. It's also been discovered that Trayvon weighed 158 pounds and George weighed 204 pounds. That means Goerge outweighed him by nearly 50 pounds.

Can you explain how a man was moved, after being hit once and falling to the ground, 55 feet by someone he outweighed by 50 pounds?

Because I'm just not seeing it.

 

[johnny karate]

Wow. Not even so much as a headache the next day.

His wound size on the back of his head was....wait for it


1/8" - 2cm

GZ only went to the doctor to get a release for work.

The medical report, finally released: http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf

He was in amazingly good shape for a guy who had been so horribly pummeled the night before by a 160 pound teenager.

GZ weighed in at 204.

Some interesting stuff from the medical report:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/99022693/George-Zimmerman-Medical-Report

Sorry if this has been covered but we're all behind because of the moderation.

1. His nose was "likely broken". But he never went to the ENT guy, did they? So no xray or anything.
2. Weird, but his doctor wrote out George's side of the story in detail, including that he was viciously assaulted but discharged his legally carried weapon and killed that thug. Is that normal for a medical report from a family doctor?
3. His doctor called him "white". So, does George call himself that when he fills out forms? Seems so.
4. The extent of his injuries, according to his own doctor, was two cuts on the back of his head ~2 centimeters long that didn't need stitches or even a bandage, and a sore nose.

Oh, and George weighed 204 lbs when he killed Trayvon. That's almost what, a fifty pound difference? 50!!!

Trayvon Martin: 6'0" and 160 lbs.

George Zimmerman: 5'7.5" and 204 lbs.

Zimmerman was 4.5 inches shorter, but 44 lbs heavier.

Make of that what you will. Personally, I'd give the upper hand to the guy with the significant weight advantage.

Officially documented injuries to Zimmerman:

• Unconfirmed broken nose (For the sake of argument, I'm willing to continue to concede that his nose was broken to anyone willing to acknowledge it was at best a minor break.)

• Two small cuts on the back of his head (2 cm and .5 cm respectively)

• Forehead abrasion (mentioned in the EMT report but not by the doctor)

Feel free to let me know if I missed any.

So... to those that believe Zimmerman was "battered", "beaten up", "had the crap kicked out of him", or generally believe his account of being repeatedly punched and repeatedly having his head bashed onto concrete... could you please point to the evidence that supports this belief?

 

[This is The End]

So how can we explain the similarities in the statements who were uncertain and didn't see much?

How do we reconcile their similarity to Zimmerman's account?

This was answered repeatedly in the thread but let's go through it again.

All Z has to do is change one minor incriminating detail and stick with it. The rest of his story would match.

For instance, if when Z finally gets to his gun, perhaps M sees it and gives up, or perhaps M immediately backs off. Z shoots him anyway. All Z would have to do is leave out the "M gave up" or "M backed off" part, and everything else would match, all details, all witness statements, etc.

But, in reality, two huge details from Z's statements don't match, two details that cannot be explained away with memory lapse.

One centers around the change in story (from the non911 call to the reenactment) concerning the time during the move from the clubhouse to the long sidewalk near ground zero. The other centers around Z's reasoning for going down the long sidewalk (again from the non911 call to the reenactment).

Those two huge changes to Z's story cannot be reconciled with logic. They are going to be brought up in the trial. Guaranteed. They are probably going to spend considerable time on one if not both. Near guarantee of that.

This video, which is probably biased, touches on both, but yet misses some key details of the two, even though the author was probably biased!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k07wZIU1siM

On top of those there are several other minor inconsistencies in Z's story. Sure, those can be explained away with normal memory lapse and normal memory changes, but perhaps not all of them.

(If you don't want to watch the entire 15 minutes (which I would question why you don't want to...) at least watch for 2 minutes starting at this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k07wZIU1siM#t=10m8s

Compare that 2 minutes to the non911 call.)

In summary, even though Z had the chance to stick to one story (except perhaps for one incriminating detail or two), he didn't. He messed up his story big time.

If, as Cylinder points out, there were not similarities between witness statements and Z's story then this would have been an open and shut case and there would not be a 15,000 page thread on it. So, it is quite obvious why there are similarities no matter which of the below scenarios is true.

In conclusion, Z could still be innocent, and the 2 major changes to his story are because he was nervous and/or thought he needed a more solid case.

Or, Z could be guilty of murder 2.

Or, Z could be guilty of manslaughter.

I'm not sure why some people are acting like (or at least appearing to act like) they know which is which.

 

[johnny karate]

Going back to the claim of lack of blood on Martin's hands, after rereading the ME report, there's no mention of external blood at all - even in the area around the gunshot wound.

The forensic report indicates Martin's blood was found on his shirt and his hoodie.

Why would you expect the ME report to specifically mention the presence of external blood?

 

[Rare Truth]

Nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe remaining on his back. He does describe being face down immediately *after* shooting Martin.

What point are you trying to make?

So when he was being "bashed repeatedly" - he wasn't on his back?

When that bloody head contact was made with the cement, repeatedly, he wasn't on his back?

When Witness 6 thinks he may have been holding him down, he wasn't on his back?

 

[Cylinder]

But it would still go from the back of his head to the ground, no matter what the grade.... (unless it was over 45 degrees or something crazy like that...)

No. Some will come off in drops and some will adhere to the skin and flow. Try using water and your arm as a test.

 

[Cylinder]

A scenario in which he instigated the altercation...

You mean the part of DeeDee's statement where she claims Martin confronted Zimmerman -you know, like Zimmerman himself claims?

 

[Cylinder]

Nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe remaining on his back. He does describe being face down immediately *after* shooting Martin.

What point are you trying to make?

I should have said in a hypothetical situation. My point is that even if Zimmerman remained in the shooting position, the fact that the blood was flowing down his head would not be unusual.

 

[Cylinder]

Maybe he was hiding in a tree swinging upside down like a bat as he was watching Frank Taaffe's house which they had purposely left the door open on to lure a burglar into.

I would say that was as reasonable a theory as many. Now - to prove that he didn't do it...