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Is Obesity Incurable?

There is a social willingness (at least that I've noticed) to accept the "glandular problem" or "slow metabolism" or "thyroid condition" excuses for obesity. I concede that some people are more predisposed to gaining and keeping on weight than others, but regardless of one's individual disposition obesity boils down ultimately to willpower and self-control.
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I do agree with that. Too many really obese people have told me "I'm big-boned" or "I have eit954uereorut sydrome (what? you've never heard of it?) and I only eat one slice of toast every day". :(
 
Ok that said, we are designed to be opportunistic when it comes to food sources due to evolutionary pressure. Another factor that may affect our ability to gain or lose weight might be that small amount of Neandertal DNA that some of us have. Neandertal's were primarily meat eaters. There are some researchers who speculate that they may have hibernated or at least slowed down during winter months to conserve resources, but who really knows?

There is a modern day example of a group that used to be primarily meat eaters and that is the Inuit. They had managed to lose some of their ability to process sugars in their saliva. After they were exposed to a diet with carbs, weight gain and diabetes became a terrific problem.
 
Capaneus said:
I'm about to step out of the bounds of political correctness, but here goes...

There is a social willingness (at least that I've noticed) to accept the "glandular problem" or "slow metabolism" or "thyroid condition" excuses for obesity. I concede that some people are more predisposed to gaining and keeping on weight than others, but regardless of one's individual disposition obesity boils down ultimately to willpower and self-control. Some people will have to be much more disciplined than others to stay at a healthy weight, but with discipline it is never impossible.
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Why do I have the feeling that when you run into someone who is clinically depressed, you tell them to just "Snap out of it"? It's a very common logical flaw and I don't blame you for it -- how many of us have read about, say, a mass shooting or hijacking and thought, "Well, if I had been there, you can bet I wouldn't have just cowered away from those gunmen! I'd have taken those guys down!" Every situation is easy to conquer, as long as it's happening to someone else.

Of course, if we are honest, we have to admit that our own bad impulses (fear, cravings for unhealthy things, bursts of anger, etc) are often out of our own control. The same teenager who laughs at the fatty and calls him lazy/sloppy/etc couldn't for even one week give up pot, or alcohol, or porn, and can't resist scratching an itch for even one solid minute. Other people's impulses seem so easy to control, don't they?

But the science also proves you wrong. Your willpower is not a magical force that exists outside the body. It rests inside the same brain where your addictions and impulses and physical urges live. If the body needs to override the will power part of your brain, it will.

Read the links in the first post; the formerly fat person isn't playing the same game as someone at the same weight who has never been fat. They feel the eating urge much more often, the urges are stronger, they benefit less by resisting them. They don't derive as much benefit from exercise, they more readily store calories as fat.
 
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DragonLady said:
I do agree with that. Too many really obese people have told me "I'm big-boned" or "I have eit954uereorut sydrome (what? you've never heard of it?) and I only eat one slice of toast every day". :(
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They studied obese people measuring their metabolism -- with very rare exceptions, there were no "glandular" condition or even "slow metabolism". It was simply too much calories. Their metabolism was no different from normal weight people.
 
My argument was that with enough willpower, losing weight is never impossible.

Your response included "the science proves you wrong."

Many people have gone from obese to much lower weights, and stayed there. Therefore it is not medically impossible, unless your argument is that for some people it is impossible and for some it isn't. My position is that the difference between these two groups is 1) level desire to lose weight, and 2) level of willpower to make it happen.
 
There are many things that are curable for most but for which cures usually don't work, for psychological reasons that are pretty well understood but are also ignored when people try to prove that they can't be cured. (The desire to prove that they can't be cured is in itself a fairly obvious piece of the psychology.)

These include some but not all forms of obesity, many mental disorders, poverty, and sexual dysfunction.
 
mike3 said:
So what can one do now to keep their kids from growing up fat? Is the "mortal terror of letting youngsters out of their sight" a rational fear, or an irrational one that can be safely dropped?
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It started out as irrational, but now if your kids are out alone on suburban streets, they will be the only ones. It's kind of like swimming in the ocean alone vs in a crowd of hundreds when there is a hungry shark about.

Also, the bit about lawsuits -- doesn't this suggest our society is too sue-happy to the point it's actually causing harm? Why wasn't that such a big problem at the time you were growing up?
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Yes, when I was a kid, people didn't think that way. We had a school playground with swings, slides, and monkey bars set into asphalt. Some kids got stitches every few weeks, and some kids broke bones. Nobody thought it was a big deal, and nobody would have even thought of suing for something like that. Years later, some kid fell or was pushed off a slide and died, so a few lawsuits in those early years may have been helpful, but we've definitely gone too far in the other direction.
 
It started out as irrational, but now if your kids are out alone on suburban streets, they will be the only ones. It's kind of like swimming in the ocean alone vs in a crowd of hundreds when there is a hungry shark about.
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Yes; that is true. The attitude of "safe over sorry" has pretty much pervaded American society, and now every kid seems to live hidden, seated quietly behind one barrier or another at all times.

Yes, when I was a kid, people didn't think that way. We had a school playground with swings, slides, and monkey bars set into asphalt. Some kids got stitches every few weeks, and some kids broke bones. Nobody thought it was a big deal, and nobody would have even thought of suing for something like that. Years later, some kid fell or was pushed off a slide and died, so a few lawsuits in those early years may have been helpful, but we've definitely gone too far in the other direction.
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We went to see the fireworks in town. The baseball field was freshly mowed, and sprayed for mosquitos. A few local businesses had booths set up and were selling Frisbees and glow sticks and hats. At least half of the population of the town was there, and kids were every where.

I really enjoy people watching sometimes; especially in a crowd. And one of the most common scenes was a woman or a couple parked on a blanket, yelling at a kid or three. A few of the phrases I caught were:

No running! (heard this one at least five times)
No, no more tag!
Leave the ball here or someone will get hurt.
Don't leave my sight -no, that's too far- come back here.
No horseplay, boys.

etc

Really. Every kid in town was there. Two acres or more of wide open grass. Nice weather and free watermelon. Enough cloud cover that it wasn't too hot. Toys to play with and a thousand adults to call for help if needed. An ambulance was parked on the far side of the parking lot, just in case.

But those kids weren't allowed to play. Everyone expected them to stay with their families, on the blankets or in lounge chairs. No running, no tag, no horseplay. For some of them, it might as well have been a classroom -sit quiet, watch, be quiet, sit still, don't move, hands where I can see them, put the ball away....

No wonder the entire generation is obese. Now how will these kids who have never been free to move and play really get enough exercise later to keep off extra pounds? They don't even know what "enough exercise" is. They don't know what it is to run the 500 yard dash four times against four different opponents in a single afternoon's play. Is it even possible to learn that later? If you can't play hard when you're a kid, when can you?
 
The claim made in "The Men That Made Us Fat" is that there is a study which shows that children are no less active these days than they were 30 years ago and that the person who carried out the study has had their funding withdrawn at the behest of the food companies.

Unfortunately, I cannot find that study and it certainly flies in the face of my own personal experience.
 
I'd be interested in reading it, if you do find it. Because that certainly does fly in the face of my own experiences.
 
Beerina said:
Fair enough. Why?

The number of people who starve themselves to death has always been greatly exaggerated. Meanwhile...diabetes and heart disease...?

One of the things which irritates me is there are certain speed-like weight loss drugs that are safe and effective, but are banned in the US because addicts might illegally get ahold of them.

So, many remain fat and die young because a relative few other jackasses might abuse it. Nice that we've apparently hired government to issue value judgements in this way.
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What in God's name are you talking about?
 
I'm trying to track it down.

The study was carried out by Professor Terry Wilkin of the Peninsula Medical School (Plymouth University) in the UK. The study was reportedly carried out at Derriford Hospital in Devon.

Frustratingly, Pubmed doesn't have abstracts for most of his papers.

The claim that children are just as active does run counter to some of his other work but the general tenor of his work is to challenge the idea that lack of activity leads to weight gain but rather that weight gain leads to a lack of activity.
 
The claim that children are just as active does run counter to some of his other work but the general tenor of his work is to challenge the idea that lack of activity leads to weight gain but rather that weight gain leads to a lack of activity.
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I believe it works both ways. I think thinner people find it easier, and less hassle to move around, and so they do it with less emotional, mental, and physical effort. But with the addition of just a few pounds, it's suddenly more work in all three senses to have to walk, let alone run or ride a bike.

Also, though, I think a lot of the exercises that adults do seem punitive in nature. Running on a treadmill just isn't any fun. Neither is repetitively lifting forty pounds of cold metal. But...take up dancing lessons or carry an 80lb backpack for a weekend hike has a lot more appeal, and I think is more likely to be something people will enjoy doing well enough to make the extra effort. Sadly, those things are usually seen as "retreats" or "vacations" or "rewards" so they aren't adopted as permanent lifestyle changes.
 
DragonLady said:
Also, though, I think a lot of the exercises that adults do seem punitive in nature. Running on a treadmill just isn't any fun. Neither is repetitively lifting forty pounds of cold metal.
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Different strokes for different folks. Running on a treadmill for hours and pumping iron were exactly what I needed to help be lose 40 lbs. That's because I'm a very analytical person who likes to know exactly how much exercise he has done and precisely (but not necessarily accurately :p) how many calories he has burned. I spent 3 years exercising solely in the gym.

Now I'm much more relaxed about things and actually prefer to go out running around the countryside (moving to a beautiful part of Wales has helped) than being cooped up in a gym but I could not have got a start.
 
The Don said:
Unfortunately, I cannot find that study and it certainly flies in the face of my own personal experience.
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I'd say it's obviously wrong. How many kids walked a mile to and from school (or in my case, a bus stop) every school day 30 years ago, and how many do today? How many kids do you see on streets, playgrounds, and open fields on any afternoon today compared to 30 years ago?
 
Modified said:
I'd say it's obviously wrong. How many kids walked a mile to and from school (or in my case, a bus stop) every school day 30 years ago, and how many do today? How many kids do you see on streets, playgrounds, and open fields on any afternoon today compared to 30 years ago?
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That's a tough call. You'd have to balance that with increased numbers in organized sports -- the rise of the "soccer mom" for example.

I did see a study where they put GPS trackers on kids to see what they were up to and assumed that when the kids were outside they were active and when inside their homes, less so. This was coupled with a pedometer function. But I can't recall any results, and I doubt they had historical data to compare to. If I remember, it was an attempt to figure out if out-of-school activities varied depending on existing weight or if there wasn't a correlation.
 
marplots said:
That's a tough call. You'd have to balance that with increased numbers in organized sports -- the rise of the "soccer mom" for example.
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Has that really increased though? I couldn't find any stats. My guess would be that participation in organized sports is slightly lower now than 30 years ago for boys, but probably much higher for girls.
 
Modified said:
Has that really increased though? I couldn't find any stats. My guess would be that participation in organized sports is slightly lower now than 30 years ago for boys, but probably much higher for girls.
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I don't know. The easy thing to find out is obesity rates. The "how they happened" seems like a lot of assumptions being tossed around. I know someone (probably many someones) has studied this...
 
Honestly, the tendency to gain weight can't be cured, but obesity can.
 
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