Is Obesity Incurable?

[Modified]

The trouble with anecdotes is that they are almost all atypical.

Right, but we don't need personal anecdotes, just observations. In most suburban neighborhoods, the streets and parks used to be full of kids when school was not in session, now they are not. In places where every other driveway used to have a basketball hoop, now it is every fourth driveway, and those are in use much less frequently.

 

[mike3]

How old are you? Or if you are old enough to have seen the changes, did you grow up in a city maybe? The differences in suburban kids' activity levels from the early 70s (when I was a kid) to today are plain and obvious to anyone who's lived through that period, unless all those kids are running around inside where we can't see or hear them. Of the 50 or so families in my neighborhood with kids, there are two whose kids play outside regularly - driveway basketball, bicycle, tennis in the street, etc.

Gym class and one organized sport at a time aren't much exercise for a kid.

So how much exercise do they need? How much exercise should a person, not just a kid, get, anyway?

 

[casebro]

First hit on google for <obese lifespan>

"Obesity shaves two to four years off the average lifespan, while being very obese can shorten your lifespan by 8 to 10 years..."

I don't know the line between 'obese' and 'very obese', but 2-4? 8-10? But how does that compare to 'standard deviation', which I guess is um about +/- 6-7?

Hmmm, a couple years vs triple bacon cheeseburger deluxe.... hmmmm..... I'll get back to you with my decision- after lunch.

 

[DragonLady]

First hit on google for <obese lifespan>

"Obesity shaves two to four years off the average lifespan, while being very obese can shorten your lifespan by 8 to 10 years..."

I don't know the line between 'obese' and 'very obese', but 2-4? 8-10? But how does that compare to 'standard deviation', which I guess is um about +/- 6-7?

Hmmm, a couple years vs triple bacon cheeseburger deluxe.... hmmmm..... I'll get back to you with my decision- after lunch.

Good point. The benefits of losing the weight and keeping it off have to be great enough to be worth the effort.

I don't think the promise of four more years of life (and no mention what the quality of that life might be) is enough incentive to pass up the cheeseburgers or say "no" to the birthday cake.

 

[casebro]

This shows the fallacy of applying population studies to individuals.

Okay, fine, we identify a "risk factor". Then EVERYBODY thinks it is THE CAUSE. And that anybody who doesn't modify that risk factor is committing suicide. But geeze, 2 years for the obese? They make it sound as if I would live to be 200 years old except for my BMI. It just ain't so.

I note that our average life span is about 76. My guess is that it is 76 for cancer deaths, 76 for cardiac deaths, 76 for lung deaths. if we CURE heart disease, it won't add diddly squat to how long "we" live, we'll just die just as soon, just from a different cause. On the average.

And let me float a non-sequitor on you, humor involved: If we die at avg 70 from cancer, and we manage to cure heart disease which kills us at avg 76, won't we die earlier from cancer? On the average?

In summation of ALL of those population based studies, we don't care about the death rate, since the actual death rate is ONE. We don't need any statistics for that. What we care about is adding years to our lifespans. But they never tell us the avg life spans of those with and without that particular risk factor. It's the emporer's new clothes. This info is available, it's in somebody's lap top. Maybe the guys studying the Framinghamers. or the Harvard Health Care Workers. Thousands of deaths over 60 years, they have an avg life span of each risk factor by now.

Next question, while I have the podium: Who cares about population studies instead of individualized medicine? Insurers do. And they don't have to skip any bacon cheese burgers deluxe. If YOU do, they delay their payouts. Any miniscule delay for an individual makes profits rise when you have millions of customers. (Include Social Security, HMOs, Life Insurance,....)

It's not a Big Pharma Conspiracy, It's a Big Insurance Conspiracy.

eta: Of course, Big Insurance has investments. Lot's of investments. They actually make more money from investments than selling insurance. That is how they work. Some of those investments are in Big Pharma. Gotcha coming and going.

 

[Modified]

So how much exercise do they need? How much exercise should a person, not just a kid, get, anyway?

Kids should probably be active most of the time they are not in school, eating, or sleeping, but that doesn't mean intense exercise.

I probably average an hour of intentional exercise per day, along with an hour or so of yard work or home repair. I don't feel like that is enough.

 

[Modified]

I don't think the promise of four more years of life (and no mention what the quality of that life might be) is enough incentive to pass up the cheeseburgers or say "no" to the birthday cake.

If you are obese at a young age, you may have a poor quality of life for 70 years. Of course there are some people who feel that eating whatever they want is worth being obese, but not many.

 

[DragonLady]

So how much exercise do they need? How much exercise should a person, not just a kid, get, anyway?

I don't think there is any hard or fast rule. If I'm taking anything at all from this thread, it is that the variables are so complex that making a "rule" to fit everyone is probably never going to happen.

The questions might be better phrased: how much food can I eat without gaining weight? How much exercise do I (or my children) need? What do I (or my children) need to be doing that is so engrossing they forget to eat or don't want to stop doing it for the promise of a cheeseburger?

I think there have two big shifts in thinking since I was a kid:

1) Kids don't play outdoors as much because of perceived safety issues. As a result they don't make lifelong habits of doing strenuous things or things that lead to hours of activity.

2) Food is seen now as an activity and a reward in and of itself and people spend the hours after breakfast thinking about how long they have to endure wait until they can eat lunch. Instead of being too busy or having too much fun to even notice they are hungry, they are counting the moments and -savoring the sizzle.

What do YOU need to do to take off the extra pounds? And how can you do that without feeling like you're punishing yourself somehow.

I have to ask myself the same questions. I've been working online for a dozen years now, and have put on almost 25 extra pounds. I lost it all seven years ago, and kept it off, following the "No S" diet. But, last year when my husband lost his job I had to quit two of my favorite hobbies, and spend more time sitting here working. It's been depressing; and that depression is too easily temporarily alleviated by simply wandering to the kitchen and grabbing a snack.

Thankfully we haven't been so poor we had to skip meals...but, honestly, it probably wouldn't have hurt my waistline to intentionally say "no" a few times! But I didn't...is that lack of willpower? Self-medication? Simply forgetting to care? Intentionally rebelling against a situation that made me feel powerless? Who knows? The bottom line: I've outgrown my blue jeans, and need to do something about it. And while I'm confident I'll lose the weight, I know not everyone is so "lucky". Is it because they haven't found what works? Because they don't stick to it? Because they have some genetic switch that just refuses to come unstuck? Or is it just laziness?

Honestly, I think it's a small amount of all of those, and maybe a few more factors, too.

 

[marplots]

If you are obese at a young age, you may have a poor quality of life for 70 years. Of course there are some people who feel that eating whatever they want is worth being obese, but not many.

I very rarely see someone who is both old (say 70+) and fat. Maybe that's the cure: get old.

 

[casebro]

Marplots, have you ever been to St. Petersburg?

 

[marplots]

Marplots, have you ever been to St. Petersburg?

Florida? Yes. I honestly didn't notice the old fat people. However, I did look into it a bit and you guys are correct. The percentage falls a bit, but something like 24% of Americans over 65 are obese.

I'll have to start paying more attention.

 

[The Don]

So how much exercise do they need? How much exercise should a person, not just a kid, get, anyway?

We evolved as hunter-gatherers. We probably need an immense amount of exercise. I remember hearing (w.r.t. the San in the Kalahari) that man is the ultimate endurance predator. Over miles and miles, no animal can outpace us. This may be untrue but it gives an indication of the amount of work teh human body can absorb.

My maternal grandfather was a coalminer. He worked an 18 inch seam with hand-held tools, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week. The amount of physical work he did each day, every day puts the any attempt I may have to exercise into the shade.

That said, I've heard as a minimum we need 30 minutes, 3 times a week of significant raising of heartrate/being out of breath. These days I can get that bending over to tie my shoes

 

[The Don]

I very rarely see someone who is both old (say 70+) and fat. Maybe that's the cure: get old.

Maybe the really fat ones die from complications from type 2 diabetes in their 60's

 

[Pup]

What we care about is adding years to our lifespans.

Lifespan, of course, doesn't look at quality of life.

Anecdote: I was at a living history event last year. Another fellow was portraying my boss and I was portraying his employee in the 1860s, because I could do stuff that he couldn't, climb ladders, walk across town to fetch things, etc.

It seemed like the typical situation of an older man hiring a younger man to do the physical work he couldn't anymore. He said afterwards that if an event expected him to walk three miles, he could no longer do it, while I could choose whatever events I wanted and didn't notice the extremely easily tasks which made him huff and puff.

So imagine our surprise when we discovered we were exactly the same age. His life was already closing in as "old age" set on at 51, while mine hadn't changed in decades.

Our general health was both good. The difference was that he was grossly obese, and I wasn't.

I met him again this year, and he said he's now on a diet, trying to lose weight. I doubt that two or three years difference in lifespan was what motivated him; it was the twenty or thirty years between now and death.

 

[epepke]

We evolved as hunter-gatherers. We probably need an immense amount of exercise. I remember hearing (w.r.t. the San in the Kalahari) that man is the ultimate endurance predator. Over miles and miles, no animal can outpace us. This may be untrue but it gives an indication of the amount of work teh human body can absorb.

It is probably true. Bipedalism is quite effective over long distances. Some of the best evidence points to the evolution of bipedalism as a way to get away from erupting volcanoes and the resulting damage to habitats. We were bipedal long before we started using our hands for much that is human, like making babies, and we still had enough fur for babies (Human babies still have the palmar reflex).

Another fairly well supported idea was that much later, our ancestors survived by traveling large distances in search of the bones of predator kill. Humans could use rocks to crack open bones too large for predators to eat and get at the marrow inside.

I've often wondered if hunting by bands were the origin of bipolar disorder. An individual with the ability to track a wounded animal for days would have a significant advantage in being well fed, not only by first access to the animal but also probably by social rewards, giving advantages in reproduction. How times have changed!

That said, I've heard as a minimum we need 30 minutes, 3 times a week of significant raising of heartrate/being out of breath. These days I can get that bending over to tie my shoes

So-called aerobic, helping the heart and lungs and circulatory system and using fat reserves. So-called anaerobic is also important for strength.

 

[epepke]

Thank you for your contribution but it's a wee bit more complicated than that.

If you consume 10,000 calories a day then it doesn't matter how much time you spend in the gym.

It's rather difficult to consume that much.

When I get back into a program, I'm going to have to consume 4000 calories a day. That's about four of those fatty taco salads or the Carl's Jr. big burgers (I forget what they're called). That's a bit more difficult than it sounds, when one has a life. So I'm going to have to rely on lots of shakes, and they should be free of or low in sugar.

 

[The Don]

It's rather difficult to consume that much.

When I get back into a program, I'm going to have to consume 4000 calories a day. That's about four of those fatty taco salads or the Carl's Jr. big burgers (I forget what they're called). That's a bit more difficult than it sounds, when one has a life. So I'm going to have to rely on lots of shakes, and they should be free of or low in sugar.

You're right, 10,000 calories a day is very difficult to consume (IIRC Olympic Rowers and the like consume up to 6,000 a day) but someone who is 700lbs and gaining weight steadily may just be managing it.

 

[The Don]

I've often wondered if hunting by bands were the origin of bipolar disorder.

I'm not sure that you mean bipolar disorder. I'm not sure how being so depressed you can't even face life could be a benefit to a group of hunters.

 

[Eudaemonic Plague]

I'm not sure that you mean bipolar disorder. I'm not sure how being so depressed you can't even face life could be a benefit to a group of hunters.

I agree. It can also reduce appetite, and without treatment, you can find yourself in a downward spiral, finding it more and more difficult to bring yourself to doing anything. If I hadn't finally been diagnosed, and subsequently medicated, I'd be physically in much worse shape than now. I still find it difficult to force myself to do anything that requires regularity, like exercising, and sometimes even eating. It doesn't help that some medications can cause weight gain, like some I am on, and/or have been on.

I know many people think that overweight people spend their time sitting around eating, but at least in my case, I generally don't eat enough. That saps the energy needed to stir one to move around. I'll slap the next person who brings up confirmation bias.

 

[marplots]

I've been at a normal weight my entire life. I eat about once a day and eat until I'm stuffed. But then I don't care about food until I'm hungry again.

I wanted to mention that perspective because what I understand about being obese, at least the experiential part, comes from what heavy people tell me. And I honestly don't care if someone is fat -- it's not my concern. But what I've noticed is that fat people are driving the conversation. They diet, they obsess about food, they join clubs to lose weight. They don't like being fat. That's the part that irks me. Not that they are fat, but when they are fat and complain about it.

I smoke. I smoke heavily and am thoroughly addicted. It's damaged my ability to breathe and given me a cough and chronic dry throat. But I don't whine about it -- it's a behavior others have altered and I could suffer through quitting myself. I don't. I live with the consequences. I live with the restrictions, the prejudices and the anti-smoking regulations. I pay the taxes and the hit on my income.

Now, to those who argue it's all programmed in the genes, I have to answer, "So what?" Do you complain incessantly about being short or about the shape of your feet? Do one of two things. 1) Accept your weight and move on. 2) Do whatever you have to to alter the circumstances -- gastric bypass, starvation, move to Bangladesh. I don't care. But for goodness sake, be a grownup about it.

I have no empathy for the "poor me" framing.