Post-revolution polls in Egypt

Remove the requirement for oppression and the definition fits (and even the lack of that requirement is debatable as seen through the eyes of the MB). Deception upon deception to advance the cause of Islam, democracy as a cloak rather than an ideology, liberalism and tolerance as short-term smoke screens that will dissipate once power is achieved. Anybody who believes that the MB would embrace democracy and champion the standing of women and Christians (as per Morsi's first appointment announcement) other than as devious means to achieve an end is - I would suggest - a little naive.

Could you show me someone who is saying that the Muslim Brotherhood are liberal democrats. That doesn't mean show me someone saying they are "moderates" as opposed to hardliners (that may be a justifiable tag when compared to the Salafists) but people who are actually saying the MB are liberal democrats. They have toned down their strident image, sure. Mind you, if they are lying to win office then I would suggest it isn't a case of taqqiya but a case of...er... democratic politics.

Most people are arguing this. I haven't heard anybody on mainstream media suggest that the MB is anti-democracy because that would mean admitting the whole process is a sham, which of course it is.

Who is arguing that they are pro-liberal democracy? As far as I have heard they are portrayed as agreeing to go along with certain liberal-ish and democratic-ish ideas such as not forcing everyone into the hijab, not massacring the Copts etc... though that is setting the bar low, and most commentators don't seem to be saying this is out of principle but rather out of expedience given that the military essentially hold most of the power and aren't going to let the Muslim Brotherhood do whatever they want. If you think this is unusual and requires fancy exotic jargon to explain why a group of people are having to moderate their position a bit to please the powers that be then it isn't just Egyptian politics you know little about, I would suggest you don't know any kind of politics.


What was it with all these experts with all their decades of experience and research who still didn't understand the reach and aims of the MB? And who still don't. There's something wrong when people like me - admittedly broadly ignorant of Egyptian political and social aspects - can predict the MB being in power from 12 months off whilst the experts and the media were trumpeting about a new age of freedom and democracy and tolerance and loveliness.

There was actually a lot of debate going both ways. People were talking about the Muslim Brotherhood from the very beginning; you weren't some lone voice in the wilderness. The only thing that did bother me were the somewhat delusional reassurances that people made about the Muslim Brotherhood being late to the protests. I thought that was completely irrelevant:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6829429&postcount=25


Anyway, I'll accept that my own prediction hasn't come true yet that Qaradawi would end up with some form of power. He has said that he doesn't want power, if I recall correctly, although if he does get put into some position I won't assume that is taqqiya but rather standard politics, again.

Interestingly, Egypt's new government are now in a war of words with the UAE, where Qaradawi lives, and partly over Qaradawi's criticisms of the UAE.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2ec7b344-c528-11e1-b6fd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1zbZgdv7b


The Muslim Brotherhood doesn't seem to be shy about how much power it claims to wield among Muslims across the Middle East:

Dubai Police Chief Lieutenant General Dahi Khalfan threatened to issue an international arrest warrant for Sheikh al-Qaradawi if he repeated his criticism of the UAE. Muslim Brotherhood spokesman, Mahmud Ghazlan, later said that the “entire Muslim world” would take action against the UAE if it issued an arrest warrant for the Egyptian imam.

http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?id=28853
 
He's also a Truther.

And a vegetarian. And I'll never forgive him for this:

article-0-120D7E46000005DC-697_468x286.jpg
 
The only folks who couldn't hold onto power longer than the Egyptian military were the French (3 years... pathetic).

Yeah but Napoleon whooped their ass so hard they hailed him as a prophet.

Which is kinda funny. Our culture was so superior to theirs they thought we must be gods.
 
Yeah but Napoleon whooped their ass so hard they hailed him as a prophet.

They did?

Which is kinda funny. Our culture was so superior to theirs they thought we must be gods.

I'm pretty sure their culture (unlike, apparently, yours) knew the difference between a prophet and a god.
 
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Hmmm...I can't seem to find a citation for that statement in that Wikipedia article.

Can you tell me the original source of that statement, please?

EDIT: That article also says at the top "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." Once you find the source for that part of the Wiki article, Virus, it'd be great if you could also edit the article so it's properly cited, and doesn't risk removal as unsourced material.
 
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Yes, you can alter the meaning of the term taqiyya to suit your own definition. But then you're not exactly talking about taqiyya any more, are you?



Which has as much to do with the Islamic religious concept of taqiyya as eating crackers and sampling vintages during a wine tasting tour in Napa Valley has to do with the Christian religious concept of Communion.

Eating crackers and drinking wine has a clear link to communion but without the religious aspect, which is present in Egypt, your analogy fails. Whether you want to delve into a discussion of the granular meaning of taqiyya is neither here nor there, but when I see an Islamist being deceptive and concealing his Islamic intent when under oppression in order to further Islam I see a connection.

Egyptians aren't at all confused about Morsi's (or the Brotherhood's) intentions.

Who said they were? Clearly in the West there is deep confusion, in the media and also evidenced in the concerted pressure to remove the previous regime from power.

You aren't looking very hard, then.

Even the CNN article I quote above points out that Morsi's current statements contradict his longstanding previous positions.

It's more than just contradiction. Even if Morsi had presented a watertight front so far anybody who believes the MB and their ilk could engage with democracy in any genuine manner whatsoever is out of their mind. Furthermore I'm not American so I'm referring to the media as in the BBC and Sky News. The BBC is renowned for being a lefty mouthpiece over here, so I'd imagine in the US it would be so far to the left that it doesn't even have an analogy. Ignorant fuzzy optimism all round; the newscaster's face often has a glowing beatific smile when Egypt is spoken of, as if all the bad is in the past and the people are now liberated and skipping through the streets in celebration of their freedom.

The Brotherhood, as I pointed out before, aren't in power. SCAF is in power (and, in fact, is even more in power now than it was before the election, having since dissolved parliament and reduced the powers of the presidency).

And how long will that last? Until there's threat of another uprising at the very latest. Morsi is nominally in power and that's just the beginning.

I predicted what is happening way back in January of 2011 - Egypt, so far, appears to be getting just another variant of military rule. Darth Rotor thinks this won't last, in the long term, but we'll see, I guess.

I predict that in 10 years' time they'll look back on the pre-Morsi regime with fondness.

Could you show me someone who is saying that the Muslim Brotherhood are liberal democrats. That doesn't mean show me someone saying they are "moderates" as opposed to hardliners (that may be a justifiable tag when compared to the Salafists) but people who are actually saying the MB are liberal democrats. They have toned down their strident image, sure. Mind you, if they are lying to win office then I would suggest it isn't a case of taqqiya but a case of...er... democratic politics.

Who said liberal democrats? Conservatives aren't liberal democrats but still embrace democracy. I've not seen anybody at all appear on UK news channels to openly state Morsi is using democracy as a smokescreen to attain power. The best we get is a tentative question about the rights of women or non-Muslims, which when met with some platitude is followed with an apologetic smile and "OK then, so let's move on..."

Who is arguing that they are pro-liberal democracy? As far as I have heard they are portrayed as agreeing to go along with certain liberal-ish and democratic-ish ideas such as not forcing everyone into the hijab, not massacring the Copts etc... though that is setting the bar low, and most commentators don't seem to be saying this is out of principle but rather out of expedience given that the military essentially hold most of the power and aren't going to let the Muslim Brotherhood do whatever they want.

I don't watch much US news but it's equally clear you watch no UK news. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy arises.

If you think this is unusual and requires fancy exotic jargon to explain why a group of people are having to moderate their position a bit to please the powers that be then it isn't just Egyptian politics you know little about, I would suggest you don't know any kind of politics.

If you think that because politics involves deception then any manner of deception = politics then it's you who's ignorant.

There was actually a lot of debate going both ways. People were talking about the Muslim Brotherhood from the very beginning; you weren't some lone voice in the wilderness.

Good job I never said that. But the question I did ask is why did the majority of 'experts' not see what was blatantly clear to the observant layman? And I suppose I should include a significant number of Western governments in that too.

The only thing that did bother me were the somewhat delusional reassurances that people made about the Muslim Brotherhood being late to the protests. I thought that was completely irrelevant:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6829429&postcount=25


Anyway, I'll accept that my own prediction hasn't come true yet that Qaradawi would end up with some form of power. He has said that he doesn't want power, if I recall correctly, although if he does get put into some position I won't assume that is taqqiya but rather standard politics, again.

Standard politics is not driven from pure theology. If you want to apply the Western model of politics to Islamic governance then all I can say is good luck.

Interestingly, Egypt's new government are now in a war of words with the UAE, where Qaradawi lives, and partly over Qaradawi's criticisms of the UAE.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2ec7b344-c528-11e1-b6fd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1zbZgdv7b


The Muslim Brotherhood doesn't seem to be shy about how much power it claims to wield among Muslims across the Middle East:



http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?id=28853

And that power is set to increase any time soon. What a disaster.
 
I don't watch much US news but it's equally clear you watch no UK news. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy arises.

Ever tried reading?

Who said liberal democrats? Conservatives aren't liberal democrats but still embrace democracy.

Errmmm... you did right here. Maybe you went giddy and blacked out after your melodramatic rant so I can understand why you wouldn't remember:

Deception upon deception to advance the cause of Islam, democracy as a cloak rather than an ideology, liberalism and tolerance as short-term smoke screens that will dissipate once power is achieved.

But earlier in the thread you also said:

Perhaps not [taqqiya] in the strict definition of the word but it won't be long before it's plain what path Egypt is on and that path won't even be on nodding terms with democracy or liberalism or equality.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Muslim brotherhood are all for liberalism and democracy.

Most people are arguing this. I haven't heard anybody on mainstream media suggest that the MB is anti-democracy because that would mean admitting the whole process is a sham, which of course it is.


But I will repeat the request to show me someone saying what you say everyone is saying and try to actually provide a link this time instead of drowning me in faux-outrage slobber.
 
Ever tried reading?

I wouldn't get into a willy waving contest about volume of reading if I were you. Or were you being more specific, it's hard to tell with your funny one-liners? I was engaging in discussion about reportage of the issue as "heard... on mainstream media," and "UK news channels", and the "BBC" and "Sky News" which tends to suggest TV to me if not to you.

Some articles from the UK papers have pointed out the MB's history and extreme views but even these have almost all have expressed hope that it's a step in the right direction and none have made any clear statements about Morsi being anti-democracy, which he undoubtedly is. As I recall the Telegraph hoped that Christians and non-Muslims would be treated as equals (ha!) and the Guardian opined that it wasn't ideal but might well be the first step towards improvement (ha! ha!).

Errmmm... you did right here. Maybe you went giddy and blacked out after your melodramatic rant so I can understand why you wouldn't remember:

Then it should be no problem for you to quote it. Quote it now, where I said that people believe the MB are "liberal democrats". Or do you really believe that anybody who supports democracy and equality is a liberal democrat? If so that adds further ironic hilarity to your previous statement about me knowing nothing about politics.

But earlier in the thread you also said:








But I will repeat the request to show me someone saying what you say everyone is saying and try to actually provide a link this time instead of drowning me in faux-outrage slobber.

And I'll make a few corrections to your outburst whilst I'm at it. The very sentence you quoted is

"Most people are arguing this. I haven't heard anybody on mainstream media suggest that the MB is anti-democracy..."

Most <> Everybody as you stated. If I'd have meant everybody I would have written the word "Everybody." When combined with the fact I stated time and again I was talking about televised media this pretty much destroys your strawman.

And seeing as you ask for an example of what I said about Morsi embracing democracy and liberalism here's an article from the Guardian comparing Morsi to Nelson Mandela and claiming he's "as good as his word" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...emocracy-lead-the-way-for-the-Arab-world.html
 
And a vegetarian. And I'll never forgive him for this:

[qimg]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/08/article-0-120D7E46000005DC-697_468x286.jpg[/qimg]

Reminds me of the time I called a British friend of mine.

Me: 'So, it's Princess Diana Memorial Day. Do you participate?'
He: 'No, we're having a Princess Diana Still Dead Party.'
 
I wouldn't get into a willy waving contest about volume of reading if I were you. Or were you being more specific, it's hard to tell with your funny one-liners? I was engaging in discussion about reportage of the issue as "heard... on mainstream media," and "UK news channels", and the "BBC" and "Sky News" which tends to suggest TV to me if not to you.
Then it should be no problem for you to quote it. Quote it now, where I said that people believe the MB are "liberal democrats". Or do you really believe that anybody who supports democracy and equality is a liberal democrat? If so that adds further ironic hilarity to your previous statement about me knowing nothing about politics.

Most <> Everybody as you stated. If I'd have meant everybody I would have written the word "Everybody." When combined with the fact I stated time and again I was talking about televised media this pretty much destroys your strawman.

And seeing as you ask for an example of what I said about Morsi embracing democracy and liberalism here's an article from the Guardian comparing Morsi to Nelson Mandela and claiming he's "as good as his word" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...emocracy-lead-the-way-for-the-Arab-world.html

I see. The broadcast media aren't saying the MB are liberal democrats, just embracing liberalism and democracy. I would hand you a tiny pair of scissors to split that hair even finer but I fear you might drop it while waving your willy around.

Anyway, just to show that I can be a good sport I will concede to you that there are people claiming that the Muslim Brotherhood have turned over a new leaf and are showing themselves to be awfully nice chaps after all and that we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

So, if you would indulge me shall we turn to another, different question which is why is it that Con Coughlin of the Telegraph (Psst! The link doesn't go to the Guardian!) is quite vocal in his support for this new cuddly form of Islamism. The clue is in the final paragraph: he and a number of others that have good security services contacts are hoping to sell the anti-Assad Islamist groups in Syria. People like the MB/Hamas and Qaradawi are NATO allies suddenly.

And you're right. It's going to end in tears.
 
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Remove the requirement for oppression and the definition fits (and even the lack of that requirement is debatable as seen through the eyes of the MB). Deception upon deception to advance the cause of Islam, democracy as a cloak rather than an ideology, liberalism and tolerance as short-term smoke screens that will dissipate once power is achieved. Anybody who believes that the MB would embrace democracy and champion the standing of women and Christians (as per Morsi's first appointment announcement) other than as devious means to achieve an end is - I would suggest - a little naive.



Most people are arguing this. I haven't heard anybody on mainstream media suggest that the MB is anti-democracy because that would mean admitting the whole process is a sham, which of course it is.



What was it with all these experts with all their decades of experience and research who still didn't understand the reach and aims of the MB? And who still don't. There's something wrong when people like me - admittedly broadly ignorant of Egyptian political and social aspects - can predict the MB being in power from 12 months off whilst the experts and the media were trumpeting about a new age of freedom and democracy and tolerance and loveliness.

I think you're making a good point. I've also noticed, during the past few years really, an effort to portray the MB (in Egypt and it's sister organizations throughout the ME) as a sort of social-democratic party similar to the Christian social-democratic parties in Western Europe. I was starting to buy into that a bit, but now find myself seriously rethinking it.
 
I think you're making a good point. I've also noticed, during the past few years really, an effort to portray the MB (in Egypt and it's sister organizations throughout the ME) as a sort of social-democratic party similar to the Christian social-democratic parties in Western Europe. I was starting to buy into that a bit, but now find myself seriously rethinking it.

Not all Islamist parties are the same. Not even all branches of the Brotherhood are the same.

But when it comes to the Brotherhood in Egypt, you're totally on the right track. As pointed out in the link I posted above from former ambassador Marc Ginsburg, the Brotherhood in Egypt isn't at all like, for instance, Turkey's AKP.
 
Professor Feisal Mohamed (of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) talked with one of my favorite authors and scholars, Dr. Khaled Abou El-Fadl, about the situation in Egypt. The Huffington Post has some excerpts, with the full discussion forthcoming. Dr. El-Fadl is more optimistic than I am, but I think it's still worth reading.

In other news, the speaker of the parliament is saying it will meet again in defiance of the military's order dissolving it after Morsi declared he was going to call parliament to convene, and in response the Supreme Constitutional Court reaffirmed its decision on parliament's dissolution was binding and will not be reversed.

Through it all, Morsi and Field Marshal Tantawi (the head of SCAF and the de-facto ruler of Egypt) were seen on TV making nice with each other despite all the above going on, so who knows what this whole charade is for.
 
Egypt ex-spy chief Omar Suleiman dies

Al Akhbar said:
Egypt's former vice-president Omar Suleiman, long-time spy chief to deposed dictator Hosni Mubarak, died on Thursday in the United States, the official MENA news agency reported.

"Former vice president General Omar Suleiman died in the early hours of Thursday in a hospital in the United States," the agency said.

"He was undergoing medical tests in Cleveland," Suleiman's aide Hussein Kamal told AFP, adding that arrangements were being made to return his body to Egypt for burial.

Suleiman was appointed vice-president during the uprising that toppled Mubarak.

He left Egypt after a failed bid to run in the country's first ever free presidential elections in May. [...]


Good riddance.
 

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