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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Dogzilla said:
It isn't completely irrelevant
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It is completely relevant and the best source to go to for understanding the history, the debates about the history, and the development of the historical understanding. Perhaps you have a different topic in mind to which the work of historians is only some relevant - but as to the understanding of history, their work is the most relevant contemporary discussion.

Dogzilla said:
But the fact is that more people have read Night than have read The Destruction of the European Jews. Schindler's List and The Boy in the Striped Pajamas and all those stupid Nazi UFO shows on the History Channel do more to shape the popular perception of the holocaust than anything published by any scholars.
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Night: never read it. Schindler's List: crap. The Boy in the Striped Pajamas: from what I can tell, more crap. But people go in for crap. All irrelevant to how people in this thread have come to understand the Holocaust.

And that few people have read Hilberg matters to my knowing what happened when the Nazis held power how and why?

Dogzilla said:
Academic naval contemplation is fine
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What do ships and sailors have to do with this?

Dogzilla said:
But when you're talking about the role of the holocaust in society today you need to look outside of academia and you'll find the public gets its knowledge of the holocaust from a wide variety of sources--and academia is not one of the most important ones.
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But that is not what I was talking about: I was talking about how best to know and understand the history.

In fact, I was responding to this, which you wrote:
You get "stupid ideas" out of people's heads by educating them with the facts. When you respond by attacking them for asking the questions or telling them to 'read some books' it appears as though you don't really have any good answers and you're angry at them because you don't have any good answers.
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Which seemed to be about the tenor of and approach in debates in this tread, not the role of the Holocaust in society, as you put it.

Dogzilla said:
I'm sorry that academia simply isn't all that important to the holocaust.
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I think what you mean is that scholarship of the Holocaust and the Third Reich isn't that important to Hollywood movies, denier strawmen, Dogzilla, and people not interested in the Holocaust but greatly interested in Gilligan's Island.

Dogzilla said:
It could be and it should be, IMO. But it isn't. But I'm not saying anything you don't already know. You guys have acknowledged that public knowledge of the holocaust isn't up to snuff and that there's a great deal of disinformation about the holocaust in the public discourse. You guys dismiss it because you don't care and/or you don't feel you can do anything about it.
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Nonsense. I oppose deniers because of the misinformation they try to spread about the Holocaust. Earlier in this thread I've given examples of non-deniers making public efforts to straighten out misinformation.

Dogzilla said:
So how can you acknowledge that academia isn't important and then get all defensive when somebody says it's just not that important?
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I think you are having a conversation with yourself.
 
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LemmyCaution said:
I hate to say this but read the article I linked to and you would know. OTOH, as Nick wrote, some of Riggs' conclusions are thought to be overstated.
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Dogzilla unlike the "blissfully unaware" didn't even bother to read the extract???

This is like Mr. Moore's "I see dumb people," one wonders who is the expert here and who is the dumb one?
 
Dogzilla said:
But the fact is that more people have read Night than have read The Destruction of the European Jews. Schindler's List and The Boy in the Striped Pajamas and all those stupid Nazi UFO shows on the History Channel do more to shape the popular perception of the holocaust than anything published by any scholars.
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You have the numbers to had to document these claims, have you?
 
Dogzilla said:
If I say I don't know, does that mean they were killed?
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No, that, taken with all of the other evidence we have, means they were killed. If you were able to offer evidence in contradiction of that we'd be all ears, but since you cannot? Not so much...
 
nomuse said:
What matters is that a group was singled out for methodical extermination. It isn't important how they were defined, or how successfully defined, or how many errors in identification were made, or how arbitrary the identification was.
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Thurday's Stundie! If a group of people were singled out for extermination, it would very much matter to those people how they were defined.
 
None of this surprises me. He's also a show-off. Some long winded lecture about what the Ek were, rounded off by a BS claim that it does not prove gas chambers. My God. Droning on...

And a childish attempt to trivialise "Jaeger" by repeatedly spelling it "Jagger" knowing full well that it is otherwise. Thus demonstrating that warped sick sense of humour that he tries to keep under wraps but we get glimpses of every now and again...

This is some expert denier we have before us. Watch and learn folks as this funny man lies and misrepresents over and over again. I missed this pearl from Dr. Terry on DZ's performance over what should be described as "extermination." That is according to the "expert" who has been considering the Nuremburg laws and Mosaic Law since before Internet forums came into being:

"Holocaust deniers are playing a different language game to the rest of us, with the result that 'revisionism' is an incommensurable discourse, which is why it is shut out, reviled and laughed at. So thank you for that."
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So true it hurts.

LOL
 
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LemmyCaution said:
It is pretty obvious why Dogzilla derides book readers - 'cuz books burst his bubble.

Dogzilla pretends he's interested in a whole list of questions about which people were persecuted as Jews, for example in Vilna. Books put the lie to his posturing and to the insinuations they are wrapped in.

Dogzilla makes like there was no Nazi effort to define Jews and like historians are clueless about who was to be targeted.

First, Hilberg, as above. And then there is Arad, from The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, who discusses Reichskommissar Lohse's order of 13 August 1941, "Provisional Directives Concerning the Treatment of Jews in the Area of Reichskommissariat Ostland" (for Dogzilla's benefit, Vilna was in the Ostland), where Lohse directed that "A Jew is a person descended from at least three grandparents who are fully Jewish by race" and so on - reserving to the Gebietskommissar the right to make final decisions: "In cases of doubt, the Gebietskommissar will decide who is a Jew. . . ." This directive also mandated the registration of Jews and their property in the Ostland. On pp. 114-115 Arad further discussed, as did Hilberg, how the civil administration went beyond than the Nuremberg laws, promoting a definition of Jew as a person with one Jewish grandparent and who was married to a Jew or belonged to the Jewish religious community (pushed by Lohse). Marking of Jews and a series of anti-Jewish ordinances followed from these definitions. I am too lazy to include the footnotes from Arad here, but anyone can check the book: http://books.google.com/books?id=Dq...Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=arad soviet union&f=false.

I wonder why Dogzilla doesn't like scholarly books much.
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You're not getting it. Do you know how Jews define "Jew?" Do you know how the Nazis defined "Jew?" Do you have any knowledge of Judaism or the history of WWII? But thanks for the sources. Hilberg. Arad. I read those. They don't say anything to answer my questions. Perhaps you could be a little bit more specific about where this is discussed?
 
Frankly, you've lost me. You are babbling, I doubt even you know what you are saying aside from random negation. You're incoherent.
 
Dogzilla said:
Thurday's Stundie! If a group of people were singled out for extermination, it would very much matter to those people how they were defined.
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Did I say it didn't?

What I said, was, why should WE attach any importance to a standard set by those responsible for the killings?

The only reason someone would toss and turn about whether some Jews were missed, or some gentiles were murdered by accident, is if that person had already internalized the assumption made by the killer; that there is a definable group of people who are "different" and who might even deserve what happened to them.
 
Dogzilla said:
You're not getting it. Do you know how Jews define "Jew?" Do you know how the Nazis defined "Jew?" Do you have any knowledge of Judaism or the history of WWII? But thanks for the sources. Hilberg. Arad. I read those. They don't say anything to answer my questions. Perhaps you could be a little bit more specific about where this is discussed?
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an utter irelevence

All your questions are uttely irrelevent and lend nothing to this disucssion
 
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nomuse said:
Did I say it didn't?
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Yes.

What I said, was, why should WE attach any importance to a standard set by those responsible for the killings?
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You just said it again.


The only reason someone would toss and turn about whether some Jews were missed, or some gentiles were murdered by accident, is if that person had already internalized the assumption made by the killer; that there is a definable group of people who are "different" and who might even deserve what happened to them.
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Or perhaps because somebody knows that it's difficult to discuss anything if people define words differently.
 
Dogzilla said:
Let's see one photo and one video that is evidence of Jews being gassed. Define "logistical records" and provide one that is evidence of Jews being gassed. As far as "testimony" well, yeah, you got that.
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I'd think being gassed to death might reduce one's interest in photography.
 
Dogzilla said:
Who cited which Hollywood movie and what was the evidence that it provided?
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Obviously, you have not been reading the thread. Your denier buddy is persistently doing it. If you wish, I will link the posts, but really, everyone can see it for themselves in this thread.

And Hollywood movies are evidence of nothing.

Dogzilla said:
The fact that Hollywood does more to educate the public about the holocaust than anything the genuine scholars publish isn't a new idea around here.
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So Hollywood is equivalent to scholarship? Really?

Dogzilla said:
You are talking about the United States film industry and not the Marilyn Manson album, aren't you?
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Would you know the difference?
 
LemmyCaution said:
Stop dodging. Cyrix was able to read and reply. Are you really as cognitively challenged as you try making out?
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I still didn't see any "lies." I'm sorry if you tried to steer a conversation into the Jaeger Report to no avail. Remember that I say there isn't sufficient evidence for gas chambers or an intentional plan to exterminate all the Jews. I don't deny Nazi persecution of the Jews. I don't deny their suffering under Nazi rule. What is the Jaeger Report evidence of? Jewish suffering under the Nazis? Uh, yeah. Nazi persecution of the Jews? No duh. That millions were murdered in gas chambers? Not so much. That the Nazis planned to exterminate all the Jews? It could be in a vacuum but scholars need to look at the whole picture. And in light of all the exemptions to the Final Solution and the survival of so many Jews after the war, it is dishonest or disingenuous to say it is.

That's not lying. An example of lying is saying you never nominated Pesye Schloss as an example of a credible Jewish eyewitness to the holocaust when you did.
 
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