Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

I'll try and come back to the thread later. Work calls.

 

[Rare Truth]

So now the we have corrected the incorrect statement about the casing being under the victim, how about you answer the other question I asked you ? Then we can work on dispelling that.

If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM ?

Is there a reason you don't answer this question ?

No. How about that? I am learning to despise your tone, your interrogation style of questioning me, and quite frankly you bore me.

I told you pages ago...not going to play the game you want to play.

Have a nice day.

 

[Rare Truth]

Well, you need good evidence to break GZ's version of events.

I just don't see it.

You can't just say you don't like GZ's story, or GZ's story has problems.

That's not going to work in court, imo.

GZ can just say that yes, he is confused about the exact events because of the fight and the darkness and the shock of being punched, etc. He wasn't sure exactly where he was, or exactly where things happened.

And that's entirely reasonable, imo.

Whether the punch happened at the T, or 10 feet south, isn't a deal breaker for GZ, imo.

If you tell the police that something happened at X, then the police say, "Well, we actually found this here, not there.", and you really don't know for sure, it's natural for you to try to "explain" what the police found, or why they found it.

Except when an enormous portion of your claim MUST specifically agree that you did not pursue, and evidence suggests you did - then it matters. A lot.

 

[LTC8K6]

Except when an enormous portion of your claim MUST specifically agree that you did not pursue, and evidence suggests you did - then it matters. A lot.

Why would GZ pursue TM? To what end? He's no match for TM in a fight. If he's going to pull his gun to even the odds, or "arrest" TM, he could have done it earlier, according to his own accounts.

Why not just hold TM at gunpoint if GZ wants to "get" TM (and GZ is nuts and a vigilante)?

Even if GZ chased TM to his door, GZ still wins the legal battle, imo.

GZ didn't start the physical fight, and GZ is injured.

Manslaughter is the proper charge if there's going to be a charge, and let a jury decide. (A jury acquits, imo)

 

[Amazer]

If someone takes your 9mm out of your inside the waist band holster, and pulls the trigger from a few inches away, it is reasonable to believe that you are going to get hurt or killed.

If someone is on top of you punching you, and they move one hand down as if to take said 9mm, it is reasonable to believe that they are going to pull the trigger should they get it in their hand.

The prosecution, when all is said and done, is going to have to provide proof that not only the jury, but the judge and any possible appeals court will accept that this never happened.

They can't just just spin wild mind reading accusations about GZ's secret plot to commit murder, they must show actual proof... of a negative.

Unless they've got something up their sleeve, it is going to be hard to reach that standard inside the court room, where they can't use the sort of faked evidence that is flying all over the internet.

Thanks Crimresearch for this clear explanation.

I'll admit that I'm a little flabbergasted that there seems almost no obligation on the part of GZ to justify his self-defense claim.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No. How about that?

OK, then I'll stop expecting an answer.

I am learning to despise your tone, your interrogation style of questioning me, and quite frankly you bore me.

Uhm, sure. OK.

I told you pages ago...not going to play the game you want to play.

Games like having a rational, fact-based discussion ? Games like explaining why you think this photo actually proves anything ?

I think you believe GZ ran around chasing TM and then shot him while they were standing, and that's why you don't answer the question. But, oh yea, becuase your bored of me is more realistic answer.

 

[crimresearch]

OK, then I'll stop expecting an answer.



Uhm, sure. OK.



Games like having a rational, fact-based discussion ? Games like explaining why you think this photo actually proves anything ?

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/Decorated%20images/tmbody3.jpg[/qimg]

I think you believe GZ ran around chasing TM and then shot him while they were standing, and that's why you don't answer the question. But, oh yea, becuase your bored of me is more realistic answer.

You baaaad skeptic you!!

 

[crimresearch]

Thanks Crimresearch for this clear explanation.

I'll admit that I'm a little flabbergasted that there seems almost no obligation on the part of GZ to justify his self-defense claim.

It certainly opens the door for a good (and lucky) liar to get away with murder, using the same advantages put there for an innocent person.

 

[Amazer]

It certainly opens the door for a good (and lucky) liar to get away with murder, using the same advantages put there for an innocent person.

Or just lucky liar.

 

[Rare Truth]

So are you seriously claiming that on a skeptic's forum there should be no pointing out when people are using classic CT tactics to spin irrational fantasies out of a real life tragedy?

Everyone should just nod their head and respect the 'Dee Dee heard multiple gunshots', and 'magic audio voice analysis', and 'GZ fled from the police after he shot TM' stuff?

The faked pictures, and 'my computer screen goes blank', and 'the local police, FBI, FDLE labs are are all in on the coverup' insinuations, backed up with nothing but spin and ad homs?

Because facts and opinions and the law are interchangeable?

ETA: In all seriousness, shouldn't this forum be a little different than some random chat room?

Yousee...right here. You just made up a bunch of crap.

'Dee Dee heard multiple gunshots' --<--I've been reading the threads pretty closely. I have never seen that. If someone did, it was a rare whackadoodle post. I doubt you will find any evidence of regular posters here entertaining such nonsense.

and 'magic audio voice analysis' --<-- that headline news was made by some experts into voice analysis, and that in some courtrooms that analysis has been used effectively, with bio's by at least one expert who has testified on a number of occasions in many courtrooms is fact.
Whether the sampling or technique can be used in this case is another matter, but the evidence of the technology exists, the use of voice analysis in a courtroom exists, and people discussing the validity or implications of such is NOT in any way a 'conspiracy theory.' Your curious use of the word 'magic' is again you imparting something to posters that was not said, or even implied.

'GZ fled from the police after he shot TM' stuff --<--I've been reading the threads pretty closely. I have never seen that. If someone did, it was a rare whackadoodle post. I doubt you will find any evidence of regular posters here entertaining such nonsense.

'the local police, FBI, FDLE labs are are all in on the coverup' insinuations --<-- I doubt you will find any poster here who has stated such. All of them? It's ridiculous on it's face. That SPD has a history of some cover ups in evidence is fact. That there were major screw ups, and the lead homicide detective wanted to charge is fact. That a sitting governor found it questionable enough to appoint someone to handle it is fact. That the two people at the top (Chief Lee & Wolfinger) who overruled the capias request are now fired and retired, is a matter of record, with one of them even placing words in the defendants mouth to change the entire narrative is fact.
Are some LEO's officials corrupt or sloppy or have been known to cover up things? You bet. Are some LEO's committed to neutrality and justice for all. You bet. A great many fall somewhere in the middle of that scale. I'd like to think most towards the latter end.

Discussing the human nature of these characteristics and how they may play in a complex homicide, as it intertwines with a poorly written law is not comparable to idiots who follow chem trails, or refuse to accept a birth certificate, or still think we didn't land on the moon. What it is - is out an out derision towards people who are sincerely grappling with the many strange nuances, twists, turns and anomalies of a volatile case brought nationally to all our eyes and eyes and has many scratching their heads. So they ask. They speculate. They dig. They analyze information. They discuss. Which is what, after all, a discussion board is for. The astronomical post counts in these threads, and across the web gives indication of just how perplexing to many it is - to those with agendas, and those without.

So you pull a number of really bizarre claims to state these are classic CT tactics, and clamor repeatedly how this topic should be downgraded to junk status - when all who are reading can see how far you have to stretch to try and make your point, and many who are reading, I would bet, are genuinely insulted their participation falls in the genre of fringe, tin-hatted paranoids.

It is with hope you reconsider the obvious attempts to stifle - and that's what it is - but I don't see it happening

 

[Bob001]

Manslaughter is the proper charge if there's going to be a charge, and let a jury decide. (A jury acquits, imo)

Just a question: Will that be an option for the jury? Is manslaughter a lesser included charge? Or do they have to choose between murder or acquittal?

 

[LTC8K6]

Just a question: Will that be an option for the jury? Is manslaughter a lesser included charge? Or do they have to choose between murder or acquittal?

I do not know.

 

[LTC8K6]

It certainly opens the door for a good (and lucky) liar to get away with murder, using the same advantages put there for an innocent person.

I think that's always there.

If no one witnessed the crucial events, then you are always left with whatever decision you can make from the story you get from the shooter, and whatever physical evidence is available, and whatever any witnesses did see.

Would you convict a guy of murder if you really could not show that the shooting was murder? You just know that A shot B and A says it was self defense?

I think you have a manslaughter charge.

Is it automatically murder absent evidence of exactly what happened?

That's sort of like asking the shooter to prove he did not commit murder, which he really does not have to do.

 

[triforcharity]

People also need to remember that it wasn't a warm summer rain either. It was very cold outside in addition to the rain.

I'll disagree with that notion.

February 26th, the day of the incident, the temperature in Sanford Florida was 63 deg. F. Not very cold at all, not even by Florida standards...

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

 

[triforcharity]

First of all, I already asked this, but was it even raining that much after the gunshot? You make it sound like it rained solid for hours that night...

Second of all, wasn't the body covered up?

Yes, the body would have been covered up with a piece of plastic within minutes of being pronounced dead.

As far as the rain goes, between the hours of 6 and 10 pm, a whopping .04" of rain fell. It wasn't until after ~10 that any significant rain fell, and that was a whole .06" of rain.......yes, 4/100ths and 6/100ths of an inch.

Barely enough to bathe a mouse...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

46 minutes ago ...
Matt Gutman ‏@mattgutmanABC
Just released docs: Lead investigator on Zimmerman injuries: "marginally consistent with a life threatening violent event." @ABCWorldNews

Must be some new documents floating around ?

ETA:

Last week, Zimmerman's attorney Mark O’Mara released audio and video recordings of Zimmerman's statements to police in the days following the shooting.

In the new extended version, we see Zimmerman giving more detailed accounts of what happened on the night he killed Trayvon Martin.

A police report written statement says that Zimmerman's actions were: "inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of" and that Zimmerman had "at least 2 opportunities" to defuse situation with Trayvon.

The police report also stated that Zimmerman "failed to identify himself as a concerned resident or a neighborhood watch member" to Trayvon.



Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-...ion-re-enactment-video-released#ixzz1yvTY8dap

 

[Cylinder]

Raimondo covers the body some time after TM is pronounced dead, which was at 1930 hours.

Thanks, I couldn't find that for some reason.

 

[triforcharity]

Why things just don't add up George.

Zimmerman Re-enactment Video w. Notes pt. 1 (inc. comparisons to police call)



A video worth looking at:

Yeah, that isn't going to go well for GZ. Not at all.

Good find! Do you know where part 2 is? Or is it still being worked on?

 

[LTC8K6]

I'll disagree with that notion.

February 26th, the day of the incident, the temperature in Sanford Florida was 63 deg. F. Not very cold at all, not even by Florida standards...

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLSANFO10&month=2&day=26&year=2012

55F

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLSANFO10&month=2&day=26&year=2012

55F

no, weather underground says it was 63 degrees at 1900 hours.