Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

So... you think the rain might have been a factor? That maybe the modern science of forensics can be confounded by a light sprinkling of water? How would blood ever be retrieved from a crime scene if the perfect murder required only a spray bottle filled with tap water?
Do you think it would be more than none? Because that's how much was found on Martin's hands.

I'm afraid I haven't watched NCIS or whatever enough, and I don't know what is supposed to be there.

What evidence is there that proves that?

I find GZ story and the broken nose, abrasions and swelling to be evidence he was hit at least a few times.

And you seem quite content to ignore the contradiction in those two beliefs.

No, I am ignorant of the how exactly those two things are related, which is not the same as 'content to ignore'.

It's not just the punches. It's also the head-bashing. And the smothering. Martin had his hands all over a head and face the were covered in blood. Not a drop of that blood got on his hands.

You seem to believe that one person can repeatedly hit another person's bleeding face, grab their bleeding head and repeatedly smash it on the ground, and use their bare hands to try to smother them and have zero traces of any of this on their hands short of one tiny abrasion. No blood. No DNA. No evidence of any kind. That is the threshold you are setting.

Yes, I do seem to believe that. If it's impossible, as you say, then I don't know why there was every any doubt about filing charges, and GZ will be easily convicted. There you go, you solved the case, cracked it wide open.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The only people I don't see having a rational discussion are the people that constantly complain about conspiracy theories instead of actually presenting facts to dispel them.

You don't have to, you know. No one is keeping a gun to your head and forcing you to.
[...]

Yes, I do know. I was making a point in response to the assertion people should be presenting facts to dispel the conspiracy theories.

As to the rest of the points, they already have been discussed and dispelled earlier in the thread.

 

[LTC8K6]

There were a lot of details in the medical reports that show us that this was sort of an intimate hand-to-hand struggle. There was -- from DNA, we can see Trayvon's blood on George Zimmerman's shirt, George Zimmerman's blood on Trayvon's sweatshirt, blood under Trayvon's fingernails, all kinds of material that shows us that this was a real struggle and a fight.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june12/trayvonmartin_05-18.html

I wonder whose blood would have been on Trayvon's hands/under his nails?

We know TM's hands were under him when the police arrived, and we also have GZ's blood on TM's sweatshirt.

Logically that blood came from TM's hands.

 

[Unabogie]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june12/trayvonmartin_05-18.html

I wonder whose blood would have been on Trayvon's hands/under his nails?

We know TM's hands were under him when the police arrived, and we also have GZ's blood on TM's sweatshirt.

Logically that blood came from TM's hands.

Hasn't it been established as his own blood? He was shot in the heart and likely grabbed his wound. But since they found blood, the rain could not have washed away only the blood from one of them, right? Any reason to think he had George's blood on his hands? We could certainly be operating under a false premise, but I'm not aware of any reason to doubt this fact at the moment.

 

[Amazer]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june12/trayvonmartin_05-18.html

I wonder whose blood would have been on Trayvon's hands/under his nails?

We know TM's hands were under him when the police arrived, and we also have GZ's blood on TM's sweatshirt.

Logically that blood came from TM's hands.

How do you propose that all the blood transfers from TM's hands to his sweatshirt, to the extend that it leaves absolutely no trace on TM's hands?

 

[LTC8K6]

TM's hands end up under him, where much of the blood gets absorbed by the sweatshirt or dirt and wiped off by the grass when they roll him over. What's left is washed away by the rain, except for what's left under his nails, which the rain doesn't reach.

It's entirely plausible that TM would only have some of GZ's blood under his nails.

One cannot blindly say that TM's hands should be bloody.

EDIT: IMO.

 

[Unabogie]

TM's hands end up under him, where much of the blood gets absorbed by the sweatshirt or dirt and wiped off by the grass when they roll him over. What's left is washed away by the rain, except for what's left under his nails, which the rain doesn't reach.

It's entirely plausible that TM would only have some of GZ's blood under his nails.

One cannot blindly say that TM's hands should be bloody.

EDIT: IMO.

It wasn't raining all that hard. I don't think that'll hold up, honestly. Besides. George claims he grabbed his hands and spread them out after he killed him.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm afraid I haven't watched NCIS or whatever enough, and I don't know what is supposed to be there.

So do you think it's reasonable to assume that maybe the rain could completely wash away blood and DNA?

I find GZ story and the broken nose, abrasions and swelling to be evidence he was hit at least a few times.

If have to wonder if the irony of saying this after so recently expressing derision for "internet doctors" is lost on you.

No, I am ignorant of the how exactly those two things are related, which is not the same as 'content to ignore'.

It's a fairly simply concept. When a person repeatedly comes in contact with blood, one would expect to find evidence of that blood on the parts of them that came in contact with it.

Martin's hands repeatedly came in contact with Zimmerman's bleeding face and head, so one would expect to find Zimmerman's blood on Martin's hands.

Does that really elude you? Because if I don't know better, I'd say you were feigning ignorance.

Yes, I do seem to believe that. If it's impossible, as you say, then I don't know why there was every any doubt about filing charges, and GZ will be easily convicted. There you go, you solved the case, cracked it wide open.

Snideness aside, I fail to understand why you refuse to acknowledge such a glaring anaolmaly.

Such entrenchment strikes me as belonging to someone more committed to winning a debate than learning the truth, and I honestly thought you were approaching this issue with more evenhandness than that.

 

[LTC8K6]

It wasn't raining all that hard. I don't think that'll hold up, honestly. Besides. George claims he grabbed his hands and spread them out after he killed him.

The security cam videos show intermittent decent rain, I believe.

The grass was certainly good and wet.

We don't know exactly what happened.

The police report has TM's hands under him.

What we do know is that TM not having bloody hands a short time after the incident is plausible. It does not mean that TM didn't punch GZ's face several times.

TM could have had bloody hands initially, and had only blood under his nails later.

Besides, how do we know TM's hands didn't have some blood on them when the police turned him over? It would have primarily been on the backs if it was there. It's not like SPD would have noticed it or cared while doing rescue breathing.

 

[johnny karate]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june12/trayvonmartin_05-18.html

I wonder whose blood would have been on Trayvon's hands/under his nails?

We know TM's hands were under him when the police arrived, and we also have GZ's blood on TM's sweatshirt.

Logically that blood came from TM's hands.

Not unless "logically" means a perfectly clean transfer from his hands to his sweatshirt, because none of that blood was found on his hands.

 

[Unabogie]

The security cam videos show intermittent decent rain, I believe.

The grass was certainly good and wet.

We don't know exactly what happened.

The police report has TM's hands under him.

What we do know is that TM not having bloody hands a short time after the incident is plausible. It does not mean that TM didn't punch GZ's face several times.

TM could have had bloody hands initially, and had only blood under his nails later.

Besides, how do we know TM's hands didn't have some blood on them when the police turned him over? It would have primarily been on the backs if it was there. It's not like SPD would have noticed it or cared while doing rescue breathing.

Why only on the backs? George claims he grabbed his bloody head and tried to cover his bloody nose with both hands. If his hands have blood on them, but none of it is George's, then this is a problem.

 

[Unabogie]

The security cam videos show intermittent decent rain, I believe.

The grass was certainly good and wet.

We don't know exactly what happened.

The police report has TM's hands under him.

What we do know is that TM not having bloody hands a short time after the incident is plausible. It does not mean that TM didn't punch GZ's face several times.

TM could have had bloody hands initially, and had only blood under his nails later.

Besides, how do we know TM's hands didn't have some blood on them when the police turned him over? It would have primarily been on the backs if it was there. It's not like SPD would have noticed it or cared while doing rescue breathing.

Anyway, care to address my distance calculation? How far is it from the T to the middle of John's backyard?

I get 55 feet.

 

[johnny karate]

TM's hands end up under him, where much of the blood gets absorbed by the sweatshirt or dirt and wiped off by the grass when they roll him over. What's left is washed away by the rain, except for what's left under his nails, which the rain doesn't reach.

Good lord.

You know, with all the ridicule from Team Zimmerman about supposed "conspiracy theories", I can't believe idiocy like this is being posted.

But hey, possible good news for any prospective murderers out there. Apparently, wiping your hands on your sweatshirt and giving them a quick rinse is all it takes to completely remove all traces of DNA evidence.

From the forensics report:

Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.

Exhibit ME-2B Left hand
No DNA results were obtained from Exhibit ME-2B.

I have to wonder why they even bother with these tests if it's so incredibly easy to have the evidence they're testing for be completely removed.

It's entirely plausible that TM would only have some of GZ's blood under his nails.

Yes, because Martin was obviously punching, bashing and smothering using only his fingernails. Perfectly plausible.

One cannot blindly say that TM's hands should be bloody.

No one is "blindly" saying that.

It's being said in light of the fact that Zimmerman's head and face were 45% covered in blood, and Zimmerman claims Martin repeatedly punched him, repeatedly bashed his head on the ground, and attempted to smother him with his hands.

 

[johnny karate]

Why only on the backs? George claims he grabbed his bloody head and tried to cover his bloody nose with both hands. If his hands have blood on them, but none of it is George's, then this is a problem.

Clearly you're not following along. All you have to do is wipe your hands on your sweatshirt or in some dirt, and then hold them under a running tap for a bit.

This completely removes any and all traces of DNA.

That's just science.

 

[johnny karate]

From Wikipedia:

Its red color makes it readily apparent at crime scenes, and its residues are very difficult to completely remove. Blood residue has even been recovered from 100,000-year-old stone tools.

Source

Clearly, those stone tools never got wet or subjected to magically absorbent dirt.

 

[Cylinder]

So now the we have corrected the incorrect statement about the casing being under the victim, how about you answer the other question I asked you ? Then we can work on dispelling that.

If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM ?

I used inprecise language there as well.

It makes no difference really since Martin was in the rolled-over position at the time the casing was found.

The body had been removed when the casing was found. Of course, Ceisla was refering to the position of the body before it was removed.

 

[Cylinder]

From the forensics report:


I have to wonder why they even bother with these tests if it's so incredibly easy to have the evidence they're testing for be completely removed.

You're using fingernail scrapings - not swabs from Martin's hands.

From page 106:

Exhibit ME-2 Fingernail scrapings represented as being from Trayvon Benjamin Martin
Exhibit ME-2A gave chemical indications for the presence of blood.

STR DNA analysis was performed on samples from Exhibits ME-2A and ME-2B utilizing the AmpF/STR Profiler Plus and AMPF/STR COfiler PCR Amplification Kits.

Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.

Exhibit ME-2B Left hand
No DNA results were obtained from Exhibit ME-2B​

There's no record at this point that any swabs were taken of Martin's hands.

 

[This is The End]

As far as I know, Z's new bond hearing is in 4 days, on Friday.

I would like to try and have an in thread poll (this never works ).

Please quote this and say A,B, or C.

(As far as I remember, original bond was $150,000.)

Poll:

A) Equal to, or less than, original bond

B) More than original bond

C) Bond Denied​

 

[Cylinder]

By the way, we keep guessing about how far south he ended up. It's at least one or two houses down. According to this map, it's behind the third house.

The body looks to be between between W06 and the adjoining (third) house. The crime scene map will be released today or tommorow, so that will clear that up.

W11 lives next door to W06. She gave her description of the event to SPD:

It sounded like it all started right on the sidewalk by our house there and maybe like it bent the corner and right there is where the scuffle started and moved down. Cause it definitely went past the back of our house and then that's where the shot was - on this side of our house.

 

[Cylinder]

Second, I didn't ask if you lived in a big city, I questioned your blanket assertion that lots of people in that gated community must have been out walking around.

This is W-11 in her interview with SPD:

...and it was weird because it had been raining all night - you know what I mean - for there to be people out there. We were kind of like, "What are these people doing?"

Apparently Zimmerman wasn't the only one who thought it strange to have foot traffic that night.