Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[This is The End]

Some things I have learned in this thread.

1a. That is TM screaming on the 911 calls as he's about to be murdered in cold blood.
1b. But if it's GZ screaming, which it's not, it's irrelevant and has no bearing.

Fallacy of the excluded middle ground. They could both be screaming. Or any number per person. For instance, the person screaming could be different from the person yelling "help". Or one person could have screamed once and the other person did the rest of the screaming and yelling for help.

They rest of your post is borderline excluded middle ground as well.

I'm surprised you didn't add Z was on top or M was on top during the fight. Anyone who has seen a fight would guess that there is a good possibility they switched who was on top during the course of the fight.

On top of that, this is a discussion board, of course people are going to throw all possibilities against the wall and see what sticks.

 

[This is The End]

If I thought there was a serious posssibility that the people who would like to have a rational discussion (and those hopefully lurking) could do so by splitting this off from the bizzare speculationists and deniers, I'd have brought it up in FM by now.

The only people I don't see having a rational discussion are the people that constantly complain about conspiracy theories instead of actually presenting facts to dispel them.

 

[Rare Truth]

A short transcript of the interview with detective Serino at the police station:

CS: I mean, a lot of people don’t think that your injuries are consistent with getting in a life-threatening type thing, it’s a matter of perception, I understand that.

If there’s anything that you might’ve forgotten…here’s him again, and now here’s another thing too I gotta show you also. That right there, is the only injury to his hands that we could document. Okay? Now I heard you say you’re yelling for help, it’s a matter of perception, I guess that there’s no doubt in my mind that you were in fear, okay?

Well the question comes into play is that what enraged him so badly?

Besides the fact that maybe he felt he was being profiled, he’s from a bigger city, I don’t know, he can’t talk. I wish he woulda ran away. Um, I got an anonymous phone call today from somebody who gave a different version of events, you know, and that person is, uh, holding their statement. But, and they said something a little bit different.

More along the lines you tried to detain him, more along the lines that, yeah, okay, there was arguing before the incident happened, there was yelling back and forth, um, these things happen. You know, for a lot of different reasons. And that’s probably why they kept their anonymity to themselves. I’m hoping that whatever they tell me doesn’t come out on here and then all of a sudden you’re looking at something that you never dreamed you’d be looking at. Okay?

GZ: Yes, sir.

CS: That’s why we’re here today. Once again, these can be interpreted as capillary-type cuts or whatever, lacerations, uh, not really, um, coinciding with being slammed hard into the ground. Okay?

That’s skull fractures is you happen with that. I’ve seen ‘em all, you know. Me, I reserve judgment because everybody’s built differently, your tolerance for pain might be different from mine, and anybody else’s and it wouldn’t be fair for me to go, I wasn’t there. I actively remain neutral here, okay? It’s kind of a good shoot, bad shoot type thing.

GZ: Yes, sir.

 

[Rare Truth]

The only people I don't see having a rational discussion are the people that constantly complain about conspiracy theories instead of actually presenting facts to dispel them.

Boy, do I ever Second that one.

 

[Rare Truth]

Could someone tell me...is it normal for a doc to put on these big ole knuckle bandages on someone's head for a laceration?

Damn thing has wings. A few more flaps and he'd be airborne.

 

[Cylinder]

I mean, a lot of people don’t think that your injuries are consistent with getting in a life-threatening type thing, it’s a matter of perception, I understand that.

Other people don't beleive you. I understand you.

If there’s anything that you might’ve forgotten…here’s him again, and now here’s another thing too I gotta show you also. That right there, is the only injury to his hands that we could document. Okay? Now I heard you say you’re yelling for help, it’s a matter of perception, I guess that there’s no doubt in my mind that you were in fear, okay?

Other people don't beleive you. I understand you.

Well the question comes into play is that what enraged him so badly?

Besides the fact that maybe he felt he was being profiled, he’s from a bigger city, I don’t know, he can’t talk. I wish he woulda ran away.

Other people don't beleive you. I understand what you are feeling.

See what he's doing there? It's a good interveiw technique for a cooperative witness who wants to clear his name. I'm the only person who stands between you and these people who think you are evil. I know you're not evil.

There's a name for the technique, but I'm uncertain if it's kosher.

 

[Rare Truth]

...

There's a name for the technique, but I'm uncertain if it's kosher.

It's a good thing a police detective doesn't have to run his interrogation techniques by a Rabbi for his blessing then....

 

[Cylinder]

It's a good thing a police detective doesn't have to run his interrogation techniques by a Rabbi for his blessing then....

Kosher to name it, I mean. The police can lie, cheat and steal if they like. They just can't promise or threaten.

 

[triforcharity]

Could someone tell me...is it normal for a doc to put on these big ole knuckle bandages on someone's head for a laceration?

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/front-1.jpg[/qimg]

Damn thing has wings. A few more flaps and he'd be airborne.

Not on someone's head, that is for certain.

If anything, his head would have been shaved around the lacs and either butterfly bandages or Steri-Strips applied.

Not knuckle bandages.

If he had just come from the doctor, which I don't know the time frame of, he might have had a 4x4 gauze with tape there, but not likely. It's on his head, and tape and other adhesives don't do well on heads with hair.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The only people I don't see having a rational discussion are the people that constantly complain about conspiracy theories instead of actually presenting facts to dispel them.

Because that's how it works ? People get to keep posting half-assed ridiculous conspiracy theories and the rest of us are supposed to spend the time and effort debunking them ?

So GZ didn't shoot TM while TM was on top of him because someone posted a picture of two people and drew a red line ?

The police didn't actually arrive when they report they because a witness said the police didn't show up for a few minutes After the shooting?

The police lied because they claim to have heard GZ say something and the EMT who never let GZ out of his site didn't hear it ?

GZ was on all adderall and didn't tell the EMT, therefor I don't even know what ?

Thesse are the things we should focus on ?

 

[sgtbaker]

I mean, a lot of people don’t think that your injuries are consistent with getting in a life-threatening type thing, it’s a matter of perception, I understand that.

Other people don't beleive you. I understand you.

If there’s anything that you might’ve forgotten…here’s him again, and now here’s another thing too I gotta show you also. That right there, is the only injury to his hands that we could document. Okay? Now I heard you say you’re yelling for help, it’s a matter of perception, I guess that there’s no doubt in my mind that you were in fear, okay?

Other people don't beleive you. I understand you.

Well the question comes into play is that what enraged him so badly?

Besides the fact that maybe he felt he was being profiled, he’s from a bigger city, I don’t know, he can’t talk. I wish he woulda ran away.

Other people don't beleive you. I understand what you are feeling.

See what he's doing there? It's a good interveiw technique for a cooperative witness who wants to clear his name. I'm the only person who stands between you and these people who think you are evil. I know you're not evil.

There's a name for the technique, but I'm uncertain if it's kosher.

It's actually a stage in a type of technique. It falls right between "This is totally understandable," and "I am gearing up to go Stabler on your ass."

Seriously, though, like I said pages ago, though, this was a by the book interrogation.

Well, my mini vaca from schoolwork was fun. Gonna miss you all as I go back to the grind.

 

[LTC8K6]

Looks like GZ only had a box of finger care bandages and had to use them.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

We don't know if the casing was under the body. We only know that it was near it (i.e. the area where the body had lain.) It makes no difference really since Martin was in the rolled-over position at the time the casing was found.

In the area where the victim had lain is not the same thing as underneath where the victim had lain. No matter how much you want it to be, you are reading more into the statement than is written there.

It means they found the cartridge in the area where the victim had lain. A few inches to the left, a few inches to the right, above, underneath ... I don't know, because the report isn't specific.

So now the we have corrected the incorrect statement about the casing being under the victim, how about you answer the other question I asked you ? Then we can work on dispelling that.

If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

ONE paramedic said maybe one or two stitches.

Still waiting for you to back this up. Should be easy. Which paramedic said it and when ?

You say you back your statements up, remember ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8386643&highlight=back#post8386643
One thing you should know about me by now, Cyl, is I can almost always back up my statements with solid sources.

 

[This is The End]

Because that's how it works ? People get to keep posting half-assed ridiculous conspiracy theories and the rest of us are supposed to spend the time and effort debunking them ?

So GZ didn't shoot TM while TM was on top of him because someone posted a picture of two people and drew a red line ?

The police didn't actually arrive when they report they because a witness said the police didn't show up for a few minutes After the shooting?

The police lied because they claim to have heard GZ say something and the EMT who never let GZ out of his site didn't hear it ?

GZ was on all adderall and didn't tell the EMT, therefor I don't even know what ?

Thesse are the things we should focus on ?

Perhaps it is telling that you took that to heart? There is no reason to dwell on any of the crazy suggestions, and I'm sure there have been an equal amount from "both sides".

 

[crimresearch]

Because that's how it works ? People get to keep posting half-assed ridiculous conspiracy theories and the rest of us are supposed to spend the time and effort debunking them ?

So GZ didn't shoot TM while TM was on top of him because someone posted a picture of two people and drew a red line ?

The police didn't actually arrive when they report they because a witness said the police didn't show up for a few minutes After the shooting?

The police lied because they claim to have heard GZ say something and the EMT who never let GZ out of his site didn't hear it ?

GZ was on all adderall and didn't tell the EMT, therefor I don't even know what ?

Thesse are the things we should focus on ?

Absolutely. Those are the rules of internet debate.

The CT'ers are allowed to handwave away, ignore, and deny factual evidence, while complaining that no one calling them CTers has provided any facts to show them wrong.

They are allowed to post fake pictures, fake numbers, and thoroughly debunked internet nonsense, while complaining that people are attacking them and being personal and insulting... the same people they've called idiots and whacktards for not believing the CT assertions on blind faith.

They are allowed to make up their own definition for specific language, and ignore context in order to accuse everyone else of being a liar.

They get to use the memory hole trick while bragging that they always back up their assertions, and admit when they are wrong...

After all, what's the use of playing the CT game if you can't used a stacked deck like that to win?

 

[This is The End]

Absolutely. Those are the rules of internet debate.

The CT'ers are allowed to handwave away, ignore, and deny factual evidence, while complaining that no one calling them CTers has provided any facts to show them wrong.

They are allowed to post fake pictures, fake numbers, and thoroughly debunked interent nonsense, while complaining that people are attacking them and being personal and insulting... the same people they've called idiots and whacktards for not believing the CT assertions on blind faith.

They are allowed to make up their own definition for specific language, and ignore context in order to accuse everyone else of being a liar.

After all, what's the use of playing the CT game if you can't used a stacked deck like that to win?

That's odd because I don't see many people playing that game at all.

Though I do see quite a few that delusionally think that everyone is playing it. Especially people that they feel are on "the other side".

 

[johnny karate]

I don't know. I don't know if the rain had any effect or not.

So... you think the rain might have been a factor? That maybe the modern science of forensics can be confounded by a light sprinkling of water? How would blood ever be retrieved from a crime scene if the perfect murder required only a spray bottle filled with tap water?

I don't know how much blood to really expect on his hands. I think this is something that will have to be explained by experts at trial.

Do you think it would be more than none? Because that's how much was found on Martin's hands.

I can only at this moment say I believe TM hit him some number of times greater than, say, 5...

What evidence is there that proves that?

... and didn't have blood or DNA on his hands.

And you seem quite content to ignore the contradiction in those two beliefs.

I don't know what the 'believable' limit for number of hits with no blood or DNA is for you. Obviously there is some lower number that is believable ?

It's not just the punches. It's also the head-bashing. And the smothering. Martin had his hands all over a head and face the were covered in blood. Not a drop of that blood got on his hands.

You seem to believe that one person can repeatedly hit another person's bleeding face, grab their bleeding head and repeatedly smash it on the ground, and use their bare hands to try to smother them and have zero traces of any of this on their hands short of one tiny abrasion. No blood. No DNA. No evidence of any kind. That is the threshold you are setting.

 

[Amazer]

Because that's how it works ? People get to keep posting half-assed ridiculous conspiracy theories and the rest of us are supposed to spend the time and effort debunking them ?

You don't have to, you know. No one is keeping a gun to your head and forcing you to.

So GZ didn't shoot TM while TM was on top of him because someone posted a picture of two people and drew a red line ?

Only if you ignored all the other posts that discussed whether TM was shot while he was on top of GZ.

The police didn't actually arrive when they report they because a witness said the police didn't show up for a few minutes After the shooting?

Police always arrive at the precise time they report. Just ask Amanda Knox.

The police lied because they claim to have heard GZ say something and the EMT who never let GZ out of his site didn't hear it ?

Two competing stories.. by people on the scene. That would seem worthy of discussion don't you think?

GZ was on all adderall and didn't tell the EMT, therefor I don't even know what ?

So where's the CT in that?

Thesse are the things we should focus on ?

You. Don't. Have. To.

 

[Unabogie]

That's odd because I don't see many people playing that game at all.

Though I do see quite a few that delusionally think that everyone is playing it. Especially people that they feel are on "the other side".

Yeah, I made a pretty robust attempt to clear up something factual and try and find consensus on it: just how far had the fight occurred from the T and would that fit the story? You'd think people might appreciate this and put away the claws long enough to discuss it. Or is that also a CT? I'm finding it hard to tell at this point.