Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Amazer]

I've got some experience in EMS. Rescue squad, wilderness rescue, police 1st responder.

The MDs and paramedics have made their reports, the photos have been cleared up from the fakes, and I agree with them. Zimmerman was battered. He wasn't beaten severely.

Do you have some facts, or are you simply playing the game it looks like you are playing, of running away between these drive-by pooh flingings?

Not playing games, just asking questions that will (hopefully) clear any doubts I have.

Perhaps I occasionally respond to posts in a manner not to your liking; but that is really your problem. If you think that my posts run afoul to the MA, report them and if the mods agree with you; I'll be forced to reconsider my posting style. Till this comes to pass though you're stuck with the way things are.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

It isn't impossible if George had a trunk monkey.

I think I like this theory the best so far. A trunk monkey would explain everything!

 

[LTC8K6]

So it all hinges on GZ's claim that TM went for his gun?

Nope.

GZ only needed to reasonably fear that he would be injured by TM. Any actual injuries are gravy.

Let's go to a hypothetical.

***

Let's say that TM "came out from the bushes" with a baseball bat, and swung at GZ, missing him. GZ then draws and fires.

GZ is uninjured, yes?

A Louisville Slugger can do GBH in one shot, yes?

GZ has a good self defense case, without any injuries.

GZ does not need to wait for TM to connect with the bat.

***

GZ similarly doesn't need to wait for TM to connect a few more times with his fist, or for TM to bang his head a few more times.

(Assuming GZ's story is accurate, that is, and so far there are no giant holes in it.)

Reaching for the gun? That's probably imagination on GZ's part.

 

[Bob001]

Just a question here: According to this NY Times diagram (you have to click on the arrows, go to the last page), TM struck GZ on the sidewalk at the T intersection BEFORE they were in the backyards between a row of townhouses. Then TM's body was found about three houses IN along that row. That's a pretty substantial distance. So, is this accurate? Does GZ claim that TM punched him, then ran away and GZ chased him? Or that GZ tried to run away, and TM chased him? Or that they struggled hand-to-hand the whole distance? Or what? How did they get from the initial punch to the location of the body?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

 

[crimresearch]

Not playing games, just asking questions that will (hopefully) clear any doubts I have.

Perhaps I occasionally respond to posts in a manner not to your liking; but that is really your problem. If you think that my posts run afoul to the MA, report them and if the mods agree with you; I'll be forced to reconsider my posting style. Till this comes to pass though you're stuck with the way things are.

I'll take that as a 'Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing'.

 

[johnny karate]

That works for me, or close enough. A 'savage beating' is in the eye of the beholder.
If things went as you described, it is as has been claimed numerous times - an unlucky combination of events gone terribly wrong that ended in the unfortunate death of a young man.

So you agree Zimmerman lied to the police about the nature of the assault?

 

[sgtbaker]

I think I like this theory the best so far. A trunk monkey would explain everything!

What the heck is a trunk monkey, anyway?

 

[crimresearch]

Nope.

GZ only needed to reasonably fear that he would be injured by TM. Any actual injuries are gravy.

Let's go to a hypothetical.

***

Let's say that TM "came out from the bushes" with a baseball bat, and swung at GZ, missing him. GZ then draws and fires.

GZ is uninjured, yes?

A Louisville Slugger can do GBH in one shot, yes?

GZ has a good self defense case, without any injuries.

GZ does not need to wait for TM to connect with the bat.

***

GZ similarly doesn't need to wait for TM to connect a few more times with his fist, or for TM to bang his head a few more times.

(Assuming GZ's story is accurate, that is, and so far there are no giant holes in it.)

Reaching for the gun? That's probably imagination on GZ's part.

The law requires a reasonable fear of great/greivous bodily harm, which has been legally defined here many times. Correct that the fact that it wasn't completed, isn't a factor.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Just a question here: According to this NY Times diagram (you have to click on the arrows, go to the last page), TM struck GZ on the sidewalk at the T intersection BEFORE they were in the backyards between a row of townhouses. Then TM's body was found about three houses IN along that row. That's a pretty substantial distance. So, is this accurate? Does GZ claim that TM punched him, then ran away and GZ chased him? Or that GZ tried to run away, and TM chased him? Or that they struggled hand-to-hand the whole distance? Or what? How did they get from the initial punch to the location of the body?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

That appears accurate.

Both witnesses and GZ say they struggled the distance. GZ claimed (in the walk through) that he was punched and stumbled, then they grappled. Witnesses have the noise moving through the back yards.

Yes, I agree, it does look like a bit of a distance to have gone, but really it might just be 10 or 12 steps.

 

[Amazer]

I'll take that as a 'Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing'.

You'd be wrong but I don't labor under the impression, nor do I have the interest, that anything I do or say will change your mind.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So you agree Zimmerman lied to the police about the nature of the assault?

Maybe. I don't think he lied about getting punched in the nose. I doubt he counted how many times he was punched, so 30 could be a lie (still haven't seen the source for that ) or an exaggeration or a best guess. I don't doubt the back of his head hit what felt like the sidewalk at least once ... maybe the three times as he said. Or maybe it just felt that way to him. I would say GZ is telling the story and erring on the side of over-zealous reporting of events. If you want to call it a lie, call it a lie.

It doesn't change anything meaningful as far as I am concerned. I just can't demonstrate or prove that's what he is doing. You can try, you can believe that's not what someone looks like after the beating he received, that's fine. As I stated, all the police reports, emt interviews, and even Singleton and Serino during the interviews talk about how bruised and swollen he is.

 

[johnny karate]

I agree. The witness said he was beating the crap out of him. (Not his exact words)

No witness said anything like that. The only witness who said anything close retracted his original statement and said he isn't sure what be saw.

Can you explain how Martin remained untouched by Zimmerman's blood after repeatedly punching Zimmerman's bleeding face, repeatedly bashing his bleeding head into the ground, and attempting to smother him, all with his bare hands?

 

[Rare Truth]

First interview with Detective Singleton THAT NIGHT: (I'm on the path back to my car) Then: He jumped out from the bushes, he punched me in the nose, at that point I fell down. -- I tried to defends myself and he just started punching me in the face, I couldn't see, I couldn't breath...

Singleton asks: Are you still standing at this time?

GZ: No, Ma'am. I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time.

 

[Unabogie]

That appears accurate.

Both witnesses and GZ say they struggled the distance. GZ claimed (in the walk through) that he was punched and stumbled, then they grappled. Witnesses have the noise moving through the back yards.

Yes, I agree, it does look like a bit of a distance to have gone, but really it might just be 10 or 12 steps.

Right, it's a little hard to hear on the walkthrough, but while he claimed earlier that he went right down after the one punch, in the walkthrough, he says, while sort of swinging his hands, that he "tried to push him away" and sort of "stumbled". But he does this as he's walking south, which would be the opposite of pushing him away, since he's walking towards the guy who just hit him.

But regardless, his explanation is that he stumbled down that 25', swinging his hands, in an attempt to push Trayvon away from him. He does not know how he got down on the ground in this version.

 

[Unabogie]

Maybe. I don't think he lied about getting punched in the nose. I doubt he counted how many times he was punched, so 30 could be a lie (still haven't seen the source for that ) or an exaggeration or a best guess. I don't doubt the back of his head hit what felt like the sidewalk at least once ... maybe the three times as he said. Or maybe it just felt that way to him. I would say GZ is telling the story and erring on the side of over-zealous reporting of events. If you want to call it a lie, call it a lie.

It doesn't change anything meaningful as far as I am concerned. I just can't demonstrate or prove that's what he is doing. You can try, you can believe that's not what someone looks like after the beating he received, that's fine. As I stated, all the police reports, emt interviews, and even Singleton and Serino during the interviews talk about how bruised and swollen he is.

But doesn't Serino also say that his injuries don't match his story?

 

[Cylinder]

...to scan the area where the victim had lain...

We don't know if the casing was under the body. We only know that it was near it (i.e. the area where the body had lain.) It makes no difference really since Martin was in the rolled-over position at the time the casing was found.

 

[johnny karate]

Maybe. I don't think he lied about getting punched in the nose. I doubt he counted how many times he was punched, so 30 could be a lie (still haven't seen the source for that ) or an exaggeration or a best guess. I don't doubt the back of his head hit what felt like the sidewalk at least once ... maybe the three times as he said. Or maybe it just felt that way to him. I would say GZ is telling the story and erring on the side of over-zealous reporting of events. If you want to call it a lie, call it a lie.

It doesn't change anything meaningful as far as I am concerned. I just can't demonstrate or prove that's what he is doing. You can try, you can believe that's not what someone looks like after the beating he received, that's fine. As I stated, all the police reports, emt interviews, and even Singleton and Serino during the interviews talk about how bruised and swollen he is.

You seem to be angling away from the point.

Zimmerman made three specific claims about the nature of the assault.

1) Martin repeatedly punched him in the face.

2) Martin repeatedly bashed his head on the ground.

3) Martin attempted to smother him with his hands.

All three actions would necessitate that Martin come in contact with Zimmerman's head and face which EMTs report were almost half covered in blood.

Forensics report that Martin had none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA on his hands.

How do acccount for that?

 

[sgtbaker]

Again, how about we dial this back a bit, just for fun, huh?

I am sorry if it comes off as personal. I swear to you, it is not. If I fervantly disagree with you, on a particular topic, I am going to say I fervantly disagree with you. It has absolutely zero affect on my respect for you as an individual. I did not feel like I was getting heated or personal. If you would like, I will refrain from responding to your posts, in the future.

 

[Unabogie]

I am sorry if it comes off as personal. I swear to you, it is not. If I fervantly disagree with you, on a particular topic, I am going to say I fervantly disagree with you. It has absolutely zero affect on my respect for you as an individual. I did not feel like I was getting heated or personal. If you would like, I will refrain from responding to your posts, in the future.

Or we could just be two friendly people who disagree and try and steer away from loaded language and gotcha moments.

That's been known to work too

 

[sgtbaker]

Or we could just be two friendly people who disagree and try and steer away from loaded language and gotcha moments.

That's been known to work too

I thought I was