Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Rare Truth]

Serious question: is proposing an alternate explanation for some of Zimmerman's injuries in which an admitted killer, with a demonstrable willingness to lie, may have inflicted some of his own injuries, a "conspiracy theory"? Especially when we're trying to explain why even though he claims Trayvon placed both hands on his bleeding nose and abrasioned face, none of the blood transferred to his hands?

Aside from that, my question was actually about how he looked on his walkthrough. He claimed he was punched in the face 30 times, including 3 times directly to the nose. He claims that he was hit with what felt like "bricks", meaning they were not light punches, but extremely hard punches. Did he look like a beating victim to you (well, aside from the three bandaids he put on his own head before the taping)?

Not to me.

 

[Rare Truth]

So... No theory as to how Martin remained amazingly free of Zimmerman's blood, then. Just straw men arguments.

Anyone else want give it a go?

How did Martin keep all of that blood off of him while he repeatedly punched Zimmerman's bloody face, repeatedly bashed Zimmerman's bloody head onto the ground, and attempted to smother him with his bare hands?

And don't forget slid that punch-to-bloody-nose hand down Z's torso without getting any blood smear on Z's shirt or jacket...

 

[Rare Truth]

Are you just pointing out something weird or are you actually getting at something by posting this oddity? What is it you think it means?

I think his injuries are a result of a combination of falling and maybe T getting a lick in as Z tried to detain him.

I see no motive for a teenager, with no history of violence, and was generally mild mannered and who was afraid of being followed by a "creepy man" following him to do what Z says he did. The homicide detectives could not see that sort of motive either.

On the other hand, we do know Z had a strong motive to detain cause "these ******** always get away."

 

[Amazer]

He meant "house number".

And you know this how? inside source? Or just wishful thinking

 

[Unabogie]

So you are proposing that GZ self inflicted those wounds which makes my questions not all that silly. Is there any report, considering from less than a minute after the gunshot, till his photos were taken, Zimmerman was never alone, it is reasonable to assume that those self inflicted injuries would have been witnessed by someone.

There was at least one witness who saw George walking away with his hands on his head. And I don't know where you established that he had less than one minute in order to do this, but it would take only ten seconds.

He looks down, sees the people around him, it's dark, he says "oh crap, what did I just do?" and panics and marks up his own face with his hands.

Is there proof of that? No, of course not. But it would explain the blood not being anywhere on Trayvon. Is it impossible? No. Would George lie? I think we've established pretty well that he will. So can this be discounted? No. Can it be considered truth? No.

But it's not a CT, since it's just about whether or no an admitted killer and known liar would quickly scratch his own head after killing someone to embellish his own narrative. You know, like claiming he never followed the kid, or claiming unbelievable dialogue, etc, etc.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Serious question: is proposing an alternate explanation for some of Zimmerman's injuries in which an admitted killer, with a demonstrable willingness to lie, may have inflicted some of his own injuries, a "conspiracy theory"? Especially when we're trying to explain why even though he claims Trayvon placed both hands on his bleeding nose and abrasioned face, none of the blood transferred to his hands?

Rare Truth has proposed and/or implied theories about the SPD lying to support GZ. Like about statements a LEO heard that couldn't have been uttered, etc. This is not just about GZ injuries.

Aside from that, my question was actually about how he looked on his walkthrough. He claimed he was punched in the face 30 times, including 3 times directly to the nose. He claims that he was hit with what felt like "bricks", meaning they were not light punches, but extremely hard punches. Did he look like a beating victim to you (well, aside from the three bandaids he put on his own head before the taping)?

I don't have experience with how battered someone is supposed to look. I have seen people walk out of the ring after 12 rounds of boxing looking better. Does that count ?

All of the LEO and EMT statements say GZ looks battered, bloodied, and bruised.

By the way, now that you think the SPD did a good job, you should talk to Rare Truth about it. He thinks they did an awful job.

 

[Rare Truth]

Rare Truth has proposed and/or implied theories about the SPD lying to support GZ. Like about statements a LEO heard that couldn't have been uttered, etc. This is not just about GZ injuries.

You mean things that are backed up with statements, like this:

Chief Lee telling this version of Z's story:

“If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody? It’s not.” -Resigned, unresigned Police Chief Lee, on the Trayvon Martin incident, March 15, 2012

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Always a run to the Conspiracy Theory theme to deride a poster.

How is referencing what you actually post derision ?

I'm still waiting for you to back up this: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8354875&postcount=12699

You refused to reply. Is this the point at which you tell me again I'm on ignore?

I took you off ignore this morning.

As to the post you quoted:

And .... he punts on backing up his claims. What I wanted is for you to back up the claims you are making, specifically the ones I asked about, as is generally the way things work around here.

And you are right, at least in one this one regard, people can read your refusal to back up your claims and decide what to make of it.

I did, after your last round of childish non-substantive posts. But becuase I really don't like having people on ignore, I took you off to see if you had improved. Clearly, you haven't.

You want me to back up me request for you to provide evidence for you claim s ???

And yes, that is when I put you back on ignore, after I posted that.

Did you seem me respond to any of your posts between then and today ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Serious question: is proposing an alternate explanation for some of Zimmerman's injuries in which an admitted killer, with a demonstrable willingness to lie, may have inflicted some of his own injuries, a "conspiracy theory"?

Serious answer: considering the facts and evidence of the case, I think "◊◊◊◊◊◊* insane" would probably be a better description than "conspiracy theory".

 

[Rare Truth]

...
By the way, now that you think the SPD did a good job, you should talk to Rare Truth about it. He thinks they did an awful job.

The detectives did a fine job. A number of officers and Chief Lee - sucked. Many of their failures have been itemized here, and you know it.

 

[crimresearch]

Now that the bulk of the posters here are either asserting or debunking wild conspiracy theories on a massive coverup scale, will the mods please move it to CT where it belongs?

 

[johnny karate]

All of the LEO and EMT statements say GZ looks battered, bloodied, and bruised.

But what's great is that we have documentation of his actual, specific injuries so we don't have to resort to generalizations that can be broadly interpreted.

So what's your theory as to how Martin remained free of Zimmerman's blood while repeatedly punching his bloody face, repeatedly bashing his bloody head onto the ground, and attempting to smother him, all with his bare hands?

 

[Bob001]

Apparently Zimmerman found an awful lot of people suspicious.....

Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Gold Caprice … male driving with no headlights … speeding”
Subject: Conflict
Report: “Landlord is trying to take [Zimmerman’s] money for rent … and home in foreclosure”
46 Calls: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html

All 46 calls are listed. Count 'em up. 33 in the last 3 years.

Apart from the large number of calls in which GZ finds black males like TM "suspicious," this call sounds interesting. Was GZ stiffing his landlord? It sounds like he called the cops because the landlord tried to collect the rent. What do we know about GZ's living situation?

 

[Unabogie]

Serious answer: considering the facts and evidence of the case, I think "◊◊◊◊◊◊* insane" would probably be a better description than "conspiracy theory".

Are you calling me "******* insane"? Because insulting other posters is against the rules here. And against common courtesy.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

But what's great is that we have documentation of his actual, specific injuries so we don't have to resort to generalizations that can be broadly interpreted.

So what's your theory as to how Martin remained free of Zimmerman's blood while repeatedly punching his bloody face, repeatedly bashing his bloody head onto the ground, and attempting to smother him, all with his bare hands?

You go first and tell me your theory of how things happened.
Please be sure to account for all the witness statements that generally support and do not contradict GZ story. Especially the part about how he saw someone come out while he was underneath TM and say he was going to call 911 and he pleaded to him for help. Just like the initial witness statement.

 

[sgtbaker]

I think his injuries are a result of a combination of falling and maybe T getting a lick in as Z tried to detain him.

I see no motive for a teenager, with no history of violence, and was generally mild mannered and who was afraid of being followed by a "creepy man" following him to do what Z says he did. The homicide detectives could not see that sort of motive either.

On the other hand, we do know Z had a strong motive to detain cause "these ******** always get away."

You extrapolate convenient information and dismiss inconvenient information, adding what you think you know to support your theory. It's really terrible logic.

Your theory is that Zimmerman tried to detain Zimmerman, Zimmerman fell and hit his head, and maybe Trayvon got one punch in. This is supported by what? Let's see, John, who even in his vague second statement reports seeing two people on the ground one on top of the other; the dog walker, who again, regardless of how vague, saw two people wrestling on the ground; Witness 1 or 2, who also saw two people on the ground, one with arms flailing. That doesn't exactly coincide with Zimmerman fell and Trayvon got one lick. How many times did Zimmerman fall because he had multiple cuts on the back of his head. Did he bounce face first to break his nose (or is that the single "maybe" lick that Trayvon got in) then do a full 180 to bounce the back of his head, before Zimmerman, for apparently no reason at all, whipped out his Mel Gibson special to shoot first, ask later?


You just listed how many phone calls that Zimmerman made? How many of those other phone calls did Zimmerman end up trying to detain the person? 0 so we do have a history, there, but you choose to ignore it.

These ******** always get away, indicate that he does feel like they get away. Only in your already decided mind, is that evidence of clear motive.

You are free to think that but coming into a thread with a theory supported predominantly by conclusions you've drawn from suppositions about other people "feel" and then acting surprised that other people disagree is just again, really bad logic. Take away what you think you know about what other people are thinking and what do you have left?

 

[Unabogie]

Can we dial this back a bit, folks? Quit getting personal, ok?

Now, on the issue of self-injuring. Is that somehow impossible?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-letter-B-face-robbery-story-police-say.html

A McCain campaign volunteer who claimed she was robbed, pinned to the ground and had the letter 'B' scratched on her face by a Barack Obama supporter made the whole story up, police said.
Ashley Todd, 20-year-old college student from Texas, admitted that the story was false, including the claim that the 'B' stood for 'Barack,' said Maurita Bryant, the assistant chief of the police department's investigations division in Pittsburg.
Todd was charged with making a false report to police, and Bryant said police doubted her story from the start.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-robbery-story-police-say.html#ixzz1yowwSees
​

And she didn't have a motive to do this. George certainly had a motive to cover up his actions that led to the shooting. Did he do this for sure? Again, I don't know. I am just saying that he doesn't look like someone who got punched with a brick 30 times. None of his blood is on Trayvon's hands or clothes. This part of his story doesn't match what we can all plainly see.

This is what Gilbreath meant when he said the injuries and locations don't match George's story. They don't.

Ok, I have actual work to do today, so have fun. I'll try and post more at lunch time.

Can we, again, dial back the personal stuff? Thanks.

 

[Rare Truth]

How is referencing what you actually post derision ?

I took you off ignore this morning.

As to the post you quoted:

You want me to back up me request for you to provide evidence for you claim s ???

And yes, that is when I put you back on ignore, after I posted that.

Did you seem me respond to any of your posts between then and today ?

What did my reply state in No. 16299?

Oh yeah, here it is:

Alright, I'll play. State exactly what you want me to back up that you feel I have not.

You're on.

The passive aggressive game will only go so far, bud. You kept saying I did not back something up. You did not tell WHAT I needed to back up, but continued to taunt me.

Then I asked AGAIN --WHAT?? Basically: What the heck are you talking about? WHAT didn't I back up?? Get it? You NEVER explained that part.

When I asked you AGAIN, after that...what is it you think I didn't back up? Nothing.

Then you nonchalantly began to start interacting with me.

 

[Rare Truth]

/.

Well, that answers that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Always a run to the Conspiracy Theory theme to deride a poster.
[...]

or


Which picture best describes what you think happened ?