Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[sgtbaker]

You are literally taking these things to extremes.

Memory studies are not proof of anything. You can never be sure. Some people have good memories some people have bad ones. Just like with most everything there is a bell curve.

We do know that, according to Z, he is on the lower end of that bell curve when it comes to memory. But then again, we have proof that he is a liar and a conspirator from the jailhouse phone calls.

I say they are a wash.

So, in light of that, and the size of the change in his story, and the clear motive for the change, I am going to have to err on the side of the he is trying to make his story show him in the best light as possible.

That's not to say that someone who truly used self defense wouldn't do the same as well.

There's just no way to know at this point if he is innocent or not.

I am not deciding innocence. I am saying if we have variations (some rather stark variations) in witness testimony, and we have stark variations in Zimmerman's testimony; where we can attribute memory in one, it must be admitted that memory is certainly possible in the other.

What I am confronting; Zimmerman is lying, how can anyone not know the name of the street?
Well, he certainly had trouble over the phone. Was that an elaborate setup, so he can later claim he didn't know or is it entirely possible that this guy really, really blows when it comes to directions?

His story has changed so he must be lying.

In the 911 call, "Are you following him?"
"yeah..."

In his initial interview, he states that he got out to get definitive address and to see what direction Trayvon ran, coincidentally, a moment after the operator asked him which direction he ran (which, IMHO, makes that claim plausible).

Now back to the 29th interview, he said, "once he said not to follow him, and I wasn't following him..." he emphasises following. "...I was just going in the same direction he was, once he said..." and then Serino cuts him off, then he says, "I thought he was long gone." Singleton says, at this point, the other day, you didn't tell me that you got out right after you said he was running. When I asked you if you looked for him, you told me no. In the first interview, she did not ask him that, directly, he did say he got out to get an address and to see which direction Trayvon ran. Then, he says that dispatcher asked, "where are you?" and he told dispatcher, "I am trying to find out where he went." In the second part of that interview, he says a shorter version of the same thing, the dispatcher asked him if he was following him, and he replied that he didn't know where he was at.


Lastly, if he lied once.... I think it is perfectly fair to lack trust in his statements. I think it's bunk to say well he lied once, so everything must be a lie. There is a difference in seeing where things are lining up and assuming he is telling the truth.

 

[Rare Truth]

Anyone care to offer a theory as to how Martin managed to keep this blood off of him while he was repeatedly bashing Zimmerman's head into the ground and trying to smother him with his hands?

Another curiosity:

Puzzle me this...

Dude A hits dude B with a punch to the nose.
Knocks dude B down.
Dude B bleeds from his nose and lip
Dude A continues to punch nose/face over and over
Dude B face becomes bloodied
Dude A slams head.
More blood on dude B.
Dude A puts hands on bloody mouth and nose to smother.
Dude A then runs hand alongside torso of dude B to reach for gun.
Dude B tightens arm to lock dude A's hand to successfully reach behind to command gun.
Dude B shoots, kills.

******
Forensic evidence: Dude A has no blood or DNA of Dude B on hands, under nails on cuffs, or lower sleeves.
Dude B's clothing have no torso smear of blood on either shirt or jacket.

It's a puzzle, dude.

 

[sgtbaker]

He meant "house number".

Didn't he actually specifically say that the signs were on the houses?

 

[Rare Truth]

He meant "house number".

Not only are you accepting as rock solid truth all of Z's statement, you're taking his actual written statement captured that night - and telling us what he meant to say?

That's pushing devotion a bit too far, wouldn't you say?

 

[sgtbaker]

Another curiosity:

Puzzle me this...

Dude A hits dude B with a punch to the nose.
Knocks dude B down.
Dude B bleeds from his nose and lip
Dude A continues to punch nose/face over and over
Dude B face becomes bloodied
Dude A slams head.
More blood on dude B.
Dude A puts hands on bloody mouth and nose to smother.
Dude A then runs hand alongside torso of dude B to reach for gun.
Dude B tightens arm to lock dude A's hand to successfully reach behind to command gun.
Dude B shoots, kills.

******
Forensic evidence: Dude A has no blood or DNA of Dude B on hands, under nails on cuffs, or lower sleeves.
Dude B's clothing have no torso smear of blood on either shirt or jacket.

It's a puzzle, dude.

Did any of the witness report him beating himself up, between the time that they arrived and the police arrived? Did the police, at any time when he was in custody, report him assaulting himself? Regardless of whether or not you think they are severe, they exist. He has cuts and lumps on the back of his head, a broken nose, and scratches on his face. Is it odd that Trayvon did not have any blood on him? Yes, however, where do you think GZ got his injuries from?

 

[Rare Truth]

Did any of the witness report him beating himself up, between the time that they arrived and the police arrived? Did the police, at any time when he was in custody, report him assaulting himself? Regardless of whether or not you think they are severe, they exist. He has cuts and lumps on the back of his head, a broken nose, and scratches on his face. Is it odd that Trayvon did not have any blood on him? Yes, however, where do you think GZ got his injuries from?

Your first two question are ridiculous on their face.

There are many scenarios, many of which do not include taking at face value what the accused murderer says as fact.

 

[Cylinder]

Your first two question are ridiculous on their face.

Yes they are. IIRC, sarge was mocking that weeks ago when those theories were being proposed here on this very board.

You weren't in on that, were you?

 

[WildCat]

33 in 3 years.

That's a record for most folks.

That's wildly different from any documentation I've seen, posted much earlier in this thread.

Do you have a cite?

 

[Rare Truth]

That's wildly different from any documentation I've seen, posted much earlier in this thread.

Do you have a cite?

Yes.

Apparently Zimmerman found an awful lot of people suspicious.

For example:
Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “BM lsw: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location

Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area

Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”

Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood

April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts

Oct. 2, 2010 – 1:55 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Zimmerman reports “blu jeep grand Cherokee female driver yelling at elderly passengers … windows are tinted” … “the veh was rocking back and forth and he could hear the female yelling”

Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Gold Caprice … male driving with no headlights … speeding”
Subject: Conflict
Report: “Landlord is trying to take [Zimmerman’s] money for rent … and home in foreclosure”

46 Calls: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html

All 46 calls are listed. Count 'em up. 33 in the last 3 years.

 

[Beerina]

Your first two question are ridiculous on their face.

There are many scenarios, many of which do not include taking at face value what the accused murderer says as fact.

Well, he "should" have Z's blood on him.

"Unless," as House might say, "he doesn't."

 

[Cylinder]

Media Motion to Intervene

The media group is arguing for W9 statements and all jail calls that have been transcribed.

 

[Rare Truth]

Yes they are. IIRC, sarge was mocking that weeks ago when those theories were being proposed here on this very board.

You weren't in on that, were you?

See if you can find one post from me saying as much.

You're welcome to try.

In the interest of saving time though, I'll let you know: you can't.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

See if you can find one post from me saying as much.

You're welcome to try.

In the interest of saving time though, I'll let you know: you can't.

No, your silly conspiracy theories all involve the police lying to cover things up ... right ?

Still waiting for the cite in the report that describes the cartridge underneath the body ...

 

[crimresearch]

Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Even repeating it a thousand times isn't going to convince people who have no interest in the facts.

 

[Unabogie]

No, your silly conspiracy theories all involve the police lying to cover things up ... right ?

Still waiting for the cite in the report that describes the cartridge underneath the body ...

Serious question: is proposing an alternate explanation for some of Zimmerman's injuries in which an admitted killer, with a demonstrable willingness to lie, may have inflicted some of his own injuries, a "conspiracy theory"? Especially when we're trying to explain why even though he claims Trayvon placed both hands on his bleeding nose and abrasioned face, none of the blood transferred to his hands?

Aside from that, my question was actually about how he looked on his walkthrough. He claimed he was punched in the face 30 times, including 3 times directly to the nose. He claims that he was hit with what felt like "bricks", meaning they were not light punches, but extremely hard punches. Did he look like a beating victim to you (well, aside from the three bandaids he put on his own head before the taping)?

 

[sgtbaker]

See if you can find one post from me saying as much.

You're welcome to try.

In the interest of saving time though, I'll let you know: you can't.

Are you just pointing out something weird or are you actually getting at something by posting this oddity? What is it you think it means?

 

[crimresearch]

Zimmerman had called the police and knew they were en route. Is there something sinister about him asking that someone call his wife?

Also, how Flashlight Man's seemingly callous question give any insight into Zimmerman's story or state-of-mind?

It may come as a shock to you, but people sometimes say really dumb things in awkward situations. Human nature tells us not to ask the awkward question so often we go straight from there to the stupid one.

Don't you get it? Everything proves that Zimmerman is lying.
Even if someone else said it, even if it never existed, no matter what, it can be spun until it breaks, if needed, to prove his guilt.

 

[sgtbaker]

Serious question: is proposing and alternate explanation for some of Zimmerman's injuries in which an admitted killer, with a demonstrable willingness to lie, may have inflicted some of his own injuries, a "conspiracy theory"? Especially when we're trying to explain why even though he claims Trayvon placed both hands on his bleeding nose and abrasioned face, none of the blood transferred to his hands?

Aside from that, my question was actually about how he looked on his walkthrough. He claimed he was punched in the face 30 times, including 3 times directly to the nose. He claims that he was hit with what felt like "bricks", meaning they were not light punches, but extremely hard punches. Did he look like a beating victim to you (well, aside from the three bandaids he put on his own head before the taping)?

So you are proposing that GZ self inflicted those wounds which makes my questions not all that silly. Is there any report, considering from less than a minute after the gunshot, till his photos were taken, Zimmerman was never alone, it is reasonable to assume that those self inflicted injuries would have been witnessed by someone.

 

[Rare Truth]

No, your silly conspiracy theories all involve the police lying to cover things up ... right ?

Still waiting for the cite in the report that describes the cartridge underneath the body ...

Always a run to the Conspiracy Theory theme to deride a poster.

I'm still waiting for you to back up this: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8354875&postcount=12699

You refused to reply. Is this the point at which you tell me again I'm on ignore?

 

[johnny karate]

Did any of the witness report him beating himself up, between the time that they arrived and the police arrived? Did the police, at any time when he was in custody, report him assaulting himself? Regardless of whether or not you think they are severe, they exist. He has cuts and lumps on the back of his head, a broken nose, and scratches on his face. Is it odd that Trayvon did not have any blood on him? Yes, however, where do you think GZ got his injuries from?

So... No theory as to how Martin remained amazingly free of Zimmerman's blood, then. Just straw men arguments.

Anyone else want give it a go?

How did Martin keep all of that blood off of him while he repeatedly punched Zimmerman's bloody face, repeatedly bashed Zimmerman's bloody head onto the ground, and attempted to smother him with his bare hands?