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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Because certain things were introduced or discussed by the prosecution during the trial, that makes them "proven"?

If an official government report was introduced as an official government report, judicial notice was taken of said report. If judicial notice is taken of a report, the facts in that report do not need to be proven.

That's the way it works in the real world. That point is moot around here because, according to Team holocaust, none of the evidence introduced at Nuremberg nor any of the facts that the Tribunal wrote in any of the judgements is considered to have been accepted by the Tribunal as true unless it can be shown specifically how that specific fact influenced a specific defendant's sentence. For example, the judgement states that 2.5 million people were exterminated at Auschwitz and another half a million died from other causes. Although that is stated in the judgement, it doesn't mean that this fact was ever accepted as true by the tribunal because that specific fact cannot be directly linked to any specific defendant's sentence.

Essentially, the Nuremberg Trials have no evidentiary value whatsoever. It sounds crazy but that's the way they think.
 
. . . a very important part of Jewish identity is the need to be perceived as victims. . .

A case of someone seeing through, in the phrase of Victor Klemperer, Jewish spectacles* - an obsessive conviction that for Germans to revile Nazism, it has something to do with playing to, well, Jewish characteristics, a ridiculous caricature.



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* "The racial doctrine of the Nazis also coined the term Aufnorden (to nordify). Whether the nordification was successful I am not in a position to judge. But they definitely brought about an Aufjudung (judaification)—even in those who struggled against it. It was impossible to take off the Jewish spectacles, one saw every occurrence and every report through them, and read every book through them." from Klemperer's book, the LTI
 
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But if the fact is that there were no gas chambers, then a "revision of fact" would constitute "outright denial."
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It is NOT possible to introduce a fact that there were no gas chambers because it IS a fact that there were some gas chambers. These are mutually exclusive statements. If there were some then there can't have been none. And there were some. :boggled:
 
If an official government report was introduced as an official government report, judicial notice was taken of said report. If judicial notice is taken of a report, the facts in that report do not need to be proven.
Now all you need to do is show that judicial notice was taken of each of the items on porter's list.

And BTW, you're wrong about random official government reports being taken notice of solely because they were government reports. But then, likely you knew that... If not, you should read Article 21
 
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Somehow I knew you wouldn't have an answer.

You are aware that the little arrows by the usernames in quotes are links to the quoted post?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8393321#post8393321

There. Or you could've just scrolled up.

Read the Irving-Lipstadt trial transcript. Here's a song he used to sing to his child when what he called "half-breed children" were wheeled past:

"I am a Baby Aryan / Not Jewish or Sectarian. / I have no plans to marry an
/ Ape or Rastafarian."

The Modern Major Anti-Semite.
 
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Yes, holocaust denial and antisemitism are necessarily connected. If you press a holocaust denier, it always boils down to a Jewish world conspiracy. Antisemitism is the reason for 100% of holocaust deniers.

Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic. I can be used for antisemitic purposes but holocaust denial isn't about antisemitism. It's about knowing the truth about what happened during the war. Truth isn't anti-semitic, it's not pro-semitic, nor is it semitic neutral. Truth is truth.
 
Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic. I can be used for antisemitic purposes but holocaust denial isn't about antisemitism. It's about knowing the truth about what happened during the war. Truth isn't anti-semitic, it's not pro-semitic, nor is it semitic neutral. Truth is truth.
Demonstrably incorrect. Denial is about spreading falsehoods in service of hate. Deniers don't know the truth, they don't even know the details against which they argue.

Truth is truth, but denial isn't truth.
 
As I note from the Dogzilla post Lemmy quoted, Dogzilla gives us a great example of the fact that all holocaust deniers are antisemites.

Don't blame me for that. It was the German Constitutional Court that said

The historical fact itself, that human beings were singled out according to the criteria of the so-called “Nuremberg Laws” and robbed of their individuality for the purpose of extermination, puts Jews living in the Federal Republic in a special, personal relationship vis-à-vis their fellow citizens; what happened [then] is also present in this relationship today. It is part of their personal self-perception to be understood as part of a group of people who stand out by virtue of their fate and in relation to whom there is a special moral responsibility on the part of all others and that this is part of their dignity. Respect for this selfperception, for each individual, is one of the guarantees against repetition of this kind of discrimination and forms a basic condition of their lives in the Federal Republic. Whoever seeks to deny these events denies vis-à-vis each individual the personal worth of Jewish persons. For the person concerned, this is continuing discrimination against the group to which he belongs and, as part of the group, against him.

I agree that this is antisemitic and if I were Jewish--and I mean really Jewish like had a bar mitzvah and all and not just Jewish because my parents are Jewish--I'd be really pissed off at this. As it stands, it's mildly amusing because it shows that it is not holocaust denial which is antisemtic, but it is the reasoning behind laws against holocaust denial that is.
 
Part of the problem you're encountering, Nessie, is, in addition to your lack of familiarity with the basic literature on the Holocaust (it would save you a lot of mental gymnastics to study some of this before wading into these discussions), your refusal to learn from and see patterns in how deniers operate - how they use sources, their inability to use all the evidence, their approach to discussion and argument, their intentional distortions and game playing with information and material, and so on.

You've seen consistent and typical denier BS from Chester and his friends - yet you act as though the denier slate is a clean slate, a kind of tabula rasa.

To get a really good, thorough picture of how deniers "do history," you should read this work several times: http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique

In the meantime, consider the following:

1) Keeping in mind how our friend Chester has time and again played games with references to quoted material - two recent examples are Gitta Sereny and Filip Mueller - here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147&page=212 you can read about a similar game of hide and seek, concerning The Black Book of Polish Jewry - start with post #8475 and continue for a few pages for a sorry, sorry saga.

2) Here is another typical denier stunt, to take a second example from something contributed to this forum, showing how deniers quote and use material, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147&page=207, starting with post #8252 and continuing for a bit. Remind you of anyone?

Reviewing how deniers operate, the games they play, and the agenda one sees at work, there is something less than zero chance that they are operating in the good faith you credit them with.


I'm reminded very strongly of "reasonable people" who ask why it isn't possible to have a decent debate about evolution. They seem surprised to find that there isn't actually a scientific controversy that should properly be addressed -- there is instead lies and fake science by people with an agenda.

But instead of confronting the fact that there IS no controversy, they keep on trying to toss it back into the meta-argument of "Well, shouldn't we have an open discussion anyhow?"

(And half the time, you scratch and you find out the person isn't the impartial skeptic misled by others that they present -- that they have a religious axe to grind themselves).
 
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You have posited a nowhere near plausible theory of what might have happened. You have taken into account nothing that I asked you to. It would be obvious to a German court that if you used this rationale to spread the lie that Krema II wasn't used for gassing, your motivation wouldn't be history, but ideology.



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I have made a scenario about Krema II only as an example of how I think it would be possible to have a belief that no gassings took place there to challenge whether or not such an idea would get you into trouble with German denier laws.

It appears that there is not just potential problems with anti-denial laws but also threats of being tarred as anti-semitic and having a ideology as opposed to evidence. If a historian came across evidence which goes against what is accepted they will keep it quite.
 
It appears that there is not just potential problems with anti-denial laws but also threats of being tarred as anti-semitic and having a ideology as opposed to evidence.

Again, your problem is that you bracket the real world and people's experience in it - where nearly all deniers are anti-Semitic and in which the links between denial and anti-Semitism, political agendas, and Nazi nostalgia are apparent - and try to proceed from some ideal place where deniers work from reason and evidence.

It ain't so, Nessie, and the real world is not a thought experiment. The anti-HD laws in Europe were passed in concrete circumstances, not in general and in the abstract.

Plus TSR already answered your hypothetical, many posts ago.
 
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Here is your problem - how do you present a reasoned case for an insane position?

Leaving aside what should be done or not about your insane case - that the genocide of Europe's Jews didn't occur - is another issue, but separate to your premise. Have you read a reasoned case for denial? Can you imagine one, knowing what is known? That is, a case not dependent on unreasonable, certifiable conspiracy theories, such as 100s of witnesses and survivors were coordinated in a Hoax and 1000s of documents were trumped up by Moscow Forgery Factories? And so on?

No I have not read a reasonable case for denial. But as requested before I am putting forward what I think are the contributions to the debate by revisionist/deniers. Condeming denial laws is one.

The reason being what happens if you reasonably do believe there was no gassing at Krema II and what does a historian do if they find evidence to show such?
 
Again, your problem is that you bracket the real world and people's experience in it - where nearly all deniers are anti-Semitic and in which the links between denial and anti-Semitism, political agendas, and Nazi nostalgia are apparent - and try to proceed from some ideal place where deniers work from reason and evidence.

It ain't so, Nessie, and the real world is not a thought experiment. The anti-HD laws in Europe were passed in concrete circumstances, not in general and in the abstract.

Plus TSR already answered your hypothetical, many posts ago.

Fine, but I can counter that by saying that is clearly going to cause (and may have already caused) the suppresion of evidence to the contary as it is too dangerous to publish it. That is a terrible situation to be in.

I dont care what TSR thinks.
 
Part of the problem you're encountering, Nessie, is, in addition to your lack of familiarity with the basic literature on the Holocaust (it would save you a lot of mental gymnastics to study some of this before wading into these discussions), your refusal to learn from and see patterns in how deniers operate - how they use sources, their inability to use all the evidence, their approach to discussion and argument, their intentional distortions and game playing with information and material, and so on.

You've seen consistent and typical denier BS from Chester and his friends - yet you act as though the denier slate is a clean slate, a kind of tabula rasa.

To get a really good, thorough picture of how deniers "do history," you should read this work several times: http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique

In the meantime, consider the following:

1) Keeping in mind how our friend Chester has time and again played games with references to quoted material - two recent examples are Gitta Sereny and Filip Mueller - here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147&page=212 you can read about a similar game of hide and seek, concerning The Black Book of Polish Jewry - start with post #8475 and continue for a few pages for a sorry, sorry saga.

2) Here is another typical denier stunt, to take a second example from something contributed to this forum, showing how deniers quote and use material, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147&page=207, starting with post #8252 and continuing for a bit. Remind you of anyone?

Reviewing how deniers operate, the games they play, and the agenda one sees at work, there is something less than zero chance that they are operating in the good faith you credit them with.


I am well aware of the above, you have read my crticisms on deniers elsewhere and the way the can misuse evidence.

What I not going to do is just ignore what they have to say just because of who they are.

I would also say that due to denial laws, risk of being called anti-semitic and loss of work, respect means that it is impossible to be genuinely concerned that history is wrong and the Holocaust is not as commonly portraid.

You know I have been approaching this subject from a different angle since the very begining.
 
Fine, but I can counter that by saying that is clearly going to cause (and may have already caused) the suppresion of evidence to the contary as it is too dangerous to publish it. That is a terrible situation to be in.

I dont care what TSR thinks.

I'm against the laws, by the way, but I also don't think that they have the chilling impact you fear. The reason is that German historians have been revising understanding of the Holocaust and the Third Reich, based on a variety of sources, with the laws in effect, and, as you posted, only outright deniers have been charged under Germany's anti-incitement laws. Again, you need to look at the specifics of such cases to understand what's going on.

Do you know of a single case of a German historian suppressing evidence out of fear of prosecution for incitement?

You should care what TSR thinks - his answer to you on this topic was very cogent.
 
Fine, but I can counter that by saying that is clearly going to cause (and may have already caused) the suppresion of evidence to the contary as it is too dangerous to publish it. That is a terrible situation to be in.

I dont care what TSR thinks.

No, that's not clear at all. What it *will* cause condemnation of the lies and distortions which are the deniers' stock in trade.

And what someone thinks about your hypothetical is all you're going to be able to get, because no one else here is the German legal system, either -- and they are the *only ones* that can give a definitive answer.

Your running from the questions I posed about your hypothetical would seem to indicate that you realize that your "reasonable doubt" is anything but, and your insistence that no conspiracy would be required is the biggest hole therein, as far as explaining all of the evidence.

All of the witnesses lied, but gave roughly the same story, victims and Nazis alike . That right there would make your account less than reasonable.

Far less.
 
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