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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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Once again you clearly hear what you want to hear, since it would appear that the police had different opinions on the matter. Its humorous that you've convinced yourself thepolice "saw right through him" because they followed normal investigative techniques. Its also humorous that suddenly serino is your hero whereas previously the police were incompetent.

I will address this point because it's so silly. When this case was first reported, people said that the SPD didn't do a thorough job of investigating, including not taking the gun into custody and only doing a quick interview with George before letting him go. Thankfully, that's not the case. But prior to this week, none of us had any idea of what the investigation was really like. Now, we do. Now, we can hear it for ourselves. Now, after listening to Serino work for almost two hours, yes, I've changed my opinion of him. I took in new information and adjusted my conclusions based on new evidence. Isn't that what a good "skeptic" is supposed to do? My question is why you haven't changed your mind about anything, even after listening to this interrogation. My only conclusion is that you haven't listened to it, which explains why you're spending your time attacking posters instead of defending George's story.
 
Just a little more food for thought.

George claims he was punched in the nose 3 times. He claims he was punched in the face 30 times, with what he felt were "bricks". He claims his head was repeatedly bashed against the concrete.

Looking at George that night, the next day, and then a few days later in the walk through, is that credible? Do the lack of marks on Trayvon's hands and the lack of blood from George make sense?
 
Just an observation here: Note that these events occurred just after 7 p.m. on a Sunday. In most areas, that's a time when a lot of people are on the streets: They're coming home from whatever they did during the day, going shopping (like GZ himself), visiting friends, going out for the evening, etc., etc. Does anybody think it says a lot -- and nothing good -- about GZ's state of mind that he felt compelled to call the police just because he saw one black teen-ager walking down the street at 7 p.m.? This was a suburban townhouse development, not a farm road in Idaho. Why wouldn't people be walking around? I would be willing to cut GZ some slack if he saw somebody lurking in his own backyard at 3 a.m. But it really sounds like GZ was hunting for trouble with no good reason.
It was dark and raining... Do people where you live wander around aimlessly like that?

Zimmerman didn't call to report that he saw 'one black teen-ager walking down the street at 7 p.m.'.

Those deliberate fabrications by the media were debunked a long time ago, and your wishful repeating isn't going to change that.
 
Yes, her version is more detailed but the elements are identical. The third link from the bottom of the grouping of Witness 2's statement is taken on the same day as witness 1's. Listen to one, and then the other, then listen to witness 2's statement with the state department, and then tell me something is not weird, there.

I see what you mean, there is a dramatic change in W2's testimony, and it does tend to line up with what her sister said in her interview, although she doesn't mention John. With Serino only recording the last part of the interview, there is no way of knowing if he led her into her initial statement, or not. If the SA interviewer asked her about the change in her story, he didn't record it.

W1, who was cooking dinner, at one point said "they were running in the back" after she saw the "arms flailing". Then she saw a neighbor, presumably John, come out and and say something to them.

W2 said she was in the kitchen in her first statement, and at one point she walked back to the stove and turned it off. In her statement to FDLE, she said she was upstairs the whole time. She "saw something out there" and it was "just a glance" of an indeterminate person before hearing what turned out to be the shot. (Later she said she heard the "feet running". He didn't ask her the obvious questions - how long did she hear the feet running? Which direction? He did ask her to guess at the elapsed time between the feet running and the shot. She guessed 15 seconds, which I don't think matches up with any plausible scenario that would include Z or TM running, considering the amount of time Zimmerman is down and screaming on the non-emergency recording.)

I wonder why W1 wasn't re-interviewed. I think it is unlikely they had upstairs and downstairs stoves, but I don't know for sure.
 
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Can you source this claim? I heard in one of the interviews where Serino refers to it, but have yet to come across Zimmerman himself making the claim.

No, I'm not sure off the top my head. I'm heading out for a while. I'm sure it's in one of those early interviews. Maybe it's something he told police on the scene.
 
I see what you mean, there is a dramatic change in W2's testimony, and it does tend to line up with what her sister said in her interview, although she doesn't mention John. With Serino only recording the last part of the interview, there is no way of knowing if he led her into her initial statement, or not. If the SA interviewer asked her about the change in her story, he didn't record it.

W1, who was cooking dinner, at one point said "they were running in the back" after she saw the "arms flailing". Then she saw a neighbor, presumably John, come out and and say something to them.

W2 said she was in the kitchen in her first statement, and at one point she walked back to the stove and turned it off. In her statement to FDLE, she said she was upstairs the whole time. She "saw something out there" and it was "just a glance" of an indeterminate person before hearing what turned out to be the shot. (Later she said she heard the "feet running". He didn't ask her the obvious questions - how long did she hear the feet running? Which direction? He did ask her to guess at the elapsed time between the feet running and the shot. She guessed 15 seconds, which I don't think matches up with any plausible scenario that would include Z or TM running, considering the amount of time Zimmerman is down and screaming on the non-emergency recording.)

I wonder why W1 wasn't re-interviewed. I think it is unlikely they had upstairs and downstairs stoves, but I don't know for sure.


Can either of you two kindly post links to those? I don't think I've heard them.
 
Pointing out your irrationality is not a "personal attack".

You've pointed out to everyone that you think his story is implausible. Since you find every aspect of it implausible including parts that are not remotely suspicious, that amounts to about 0.

Once again you clearly hear what you want to hear, since it would appear that the police had different opinions on the matter. Its humorous that you've convinced yourself thepolice "saw right through him" because they followed normal investigative techniques. Its also humorous that suddenly serino is your hero whereas previously the police were incompetent.

If I can say, a lot of it seems to be lack of understanding of police interrogation techniques, seasoned by already being convinced of GZ's guilt, before the records were released.

The interrogation tactic Serino and the Singleton use are classic techniques. I believe there is even a specific name for that procedure. Round 1: Singleton is all about just the facts and in round. Round 1 strays a little bit from the typical interrogation because it's not a classic 'who done it'. They know he shot Trayvon. Round 1 was just taking statements.

Round 2 is how a typical round one goes. 2: Serino is the confident and fast talking, but sympathetic buddy, who's only looking out for Zimmerman's best interest. He is not allowing GZ to tell his story, he is asking questions based on GZ's statement and he seems to be generally asking questions about excepted truths regarding the incident (how many times did you shoot?). This is to establish honest body language, later to be compared against perceived dishonest body language. Now remember, by this point, if I recall the chain of events correctly, Serino has already recommended manslaughter, as he states the entire situation could have been avoided, had Zimmerman stayed in the car. However, in the interrogation, he acts like he completely understands the situation. This is to establish trust. People are more likely to "do more talking" in that situation.

Round 3 is the walk through. This is to see how far from his original story, the timing and location vary. There will be variations because by now, Zimmerman's memory of the incident have already started to deteriorate. It's been almost 24 hours since the incident and he has already recalled the incident, at least twice. Here's the interesting thing; they expect discrepancies. If his story was perfect, every time, they would be more inclined to believe it has been memorized.

Round 4 is when they try to hit him. Now remember, Serino thinks this is manslaughter, at this point. They can make an easy case if they can just get Zimmerman to admit to instigating the incident. Notice he is pushing the guilt factor first (the Catholic questions are a big indicator), showing pictures of Trayvon (a highly questionable tactic, mind you because emotional manipulation is known to cause memory doubt), threatening with evidence they may have against him. Then he goes into minor inconsistencies that are probably no big deal. Help me help you. This is done intentionally to get the suspect to doubt themselves. Then he goes with the alternate theory tactic. "I know your history so I know you had good intentions..." Leaving the room, they are discussing his reactions and what they are going to do, next. In the beginning, Singleton is relatively silent. By the end of that interview, it went from minor inconsisencies to glaring inconsistencies where he is clearly lying. They do this on purpose. If they come at him too hard, in the beginning, he is more likely to shut down and immediately deny. Interrogators try to avoid putting them in the denial state because it makes the suspect reinforce their security in their innocence. By the end, though, they are going step by step, deconstructing every word Zimmerman said, making him doubt everything (such as the "they always get away" pointing out that they don't always get away. That's not even relavent to the case. They just want to make him doubt himself).

What I've seen so far in the investigation is that they did a pretty by the book interrogation. It does nothing for telling me what Serino or Singleton are thinking, it just tells me that they've had standard training in interogation. What does speak volumes, though, is after all of that, and Serino's recommendation of manslaughter, Serino still comes out and says, Zimmerman's story is supported by the evidence and witness testimony. Either Serino is lying about that to cover up or his recommendation for manslaughter had more to do with moral accountability than "blatant inconsistancies" in his story.
 
If I can say, a lot of it seems to be lack of understanding of police interrogation techniques, seasoned by already being convinced of GZ's guilt, before the records were released.

The interrogation tactic Serino and the Singleton use are classic techniques. I believe there is even a specific name for that procedure. Round 1: Singleton is all about just the facts and in round. Round 1 strays a little bit from the typical interrogation because it's not a classic 'who done it'. They know he shot Trayvon. Round 1 was just taking statements.

Round 2 is how a typical round one goes. 2: Serino is the confident and fast talking, but sympathetic buddy, who's only looking out for Zimmerman's best interest. He is not allowing GZ to tell his story, he is asking questions based on GZ's statement and he seems to be generally asking questions about excepted truths regarding the incident (how many times did you shoot?). This is to establish honest body language, later to be compared against perceived dishonest body language. Now remember, by this point, if I recall the chain of events correctly, Serino has already recommended manslaughter, as he states the entire situation could have been avoided, had Zimmerman stayed in the car. However, in the interrogation, he acts like he completely understands the situation. This is to establish trust. People are more likely to "do more talking" in that situation.

Round 3 is the walk through. This is to see how far from his original story, the timing and location vary. There will be variations because by now, Zimmerman's memory of the incident have already started to deteriorate. It's been almost 24 hours since the incident and he has already recalled the incident, at least twice. Here's the interesting thing; they expect discrepancies. If his story was perfect, every time, they would be more inclined to believe it has been memorized.

Round 4 is when they try to hit him. Now remember, Serino thinks this is manslaughter, at this point. They can make an easy case if they can just get Zimmerman to admit to instigating the incident. Notice he is pushing the guilt factor first (the Catholic questions are a big indicator), showing pictures of Trayvon (a highly questionable tactic, mind you because emotional manipulation is known to cause memory doubt), threatening with evidence they may have against him. Then he goes into minor inconsistencies that are probably no big deal. Help me help you. This is done intentionally to get the suspect to doubt themselves. Then he goes with the alternate theory tactic. "I know your history so I know you had good intentions..." Leaving the room, they are discussing his reactions and what they are going to do, next. In the beginning, Singleton is relatively silent. By the end of that interview, it went from minor inconsisencies to glaring inconsistencies where he is clearly lying. They do this on purpose. If they come at him too hard, in the beginning, he is more likely to shut down and immediately deny. Interrogators try to avoid putting them in the denial state because it makes the suspect reinforce their security in their innocence. By the end, though, they are going step by step, deconstructing every word Zimmerman said, making him doubt everything (such as the "they always get away" pointing out that they don't always get away. That's not even relavent to the case. They just want to make him doubt himself).

What I've seen so far in the investigation is that they did a pretty by the book interrogation. It does nothing for telling me what Serino or Singleton are thinking, it just tells me that they've had standard training in interogation. What does speak volumes, though, is after all of that, and Serino's recommendation of manslaughter, Serino still comes out and says, Zimmerman's story is supported by the evidence and witness testimony. Either Serino is lying about that to cover up or his recommendation for manslaughter had more to do with moral accountability than "blatant inconsistancies" in his story.
Or political accountability.
 
This I find problematic and I'm concerned you're rationalizing this away.

Let me first touch on the other comment about him walking his dog:

Yes, I agree that it's plausible he didn't know his streets. While walking his dog and being the NW person should make that less likely, he shows he's not good with directions, so I'll grant you he could have been unsure about the address. Where I think he is lying is where he uses that as his reason for exiting the car "just to look for a street sign". In the NEN he says he's following Trayvon. And you can clearly hear him running. When he later claims he wasn''t following him and was only looking for a street sign, it's not plausible. And it isn't an innocent memory lapse since it's clearly self serving and affects his culpability.

As I've stated, the first interview will be the most reliable. In the initial interview, he says he got out to see which direction he is running and to get an address. In the 911 call: ..."**** he's running."
The dispatcher respons at about 2:11"He's running? Which way is he running?" After that question, George opens the door to get out of the car. There is nothing about that interview and the way the call transpired that tells me he is lying. I don't clearly hear him running. You may want to clearly hear him running but it doesn't sound like the sharp interruptions in a person's voice you would get when they run while talking.

On the issue of the "circling", there is no innocent explanation. In the NEN call, the only close contact he has with Trayvon is within about 15 seconds of the start of the call. That means one of two things:

You create a dochotomy and then explain it with your own inventions. What do you have that says that there is no close contact?

  1. He parked at the clubhouse as he says in the walkthrough and Trayvon was merely walking past the car on his way home.
  2. He never parked at the clubhouse at all and made that up.
For Trayvon to have walked past the T, come back out onto the street in order to circle the car, George would have had to have started the call near the T. He clearly says this isn't how it happens and if it did, it drastically changes the nature of events.


Therefore, I think this proves the circling at the T, and Trayvon coming back out onto the street from behind the row houses, never happened. I think there is ample evidence that this is impossible and therefore George made it up. If he made up something as inflammatory as Trayvon circling his car, and included such detail as how he turned the corner, but came back out to the street while George waiting with his windows rolled up, in fear, is this defensible?

ETA: I think the most reasonable choice is option #1 above. Trayvon really did walk past his car with his hands in his waistband, holding his drink. This is just a demonstration of George's bad judgment, but it fits the facts. I think he added the part about circling his car to embellish his tale, and unfortunately for him, this embellishment is easily discredited, which is why I keep coming back it as one of the worst of his lies.

That's a relatively easy conclusion to come to, when you established, long before the statements were released, that he is a liar. It sounds to me, based on the first interview, that he stopped at the clubhouse to make the call and Trayvon walked past him. He followed Trayvon around the corner, to down by the T. That's when Trayvon came back to check him out, this is when Zimmerman says, "he's checking me out." A few seconds later, Trayvon runs. The dispatcher asks which direction he ran and George gets out of the car. By the walk through, he is already unclear, mixing up events, and confabulating impressions he got from the dispatcher with actual requests (which direction is he running beccomes, can you get to a point where you can see him). Either, his story is going to be inconsistant because memory fails or he is a liar. If he is a liar, so is every other witness, who's story has been changed, since the initial interviews. Then, so is Trayvon Martin's father because he says he saw Trayvon over an hour after he was shot. Either you accept variations because of unreliable memory across the board or you don't and throw out everyone's statement. You don't get to agree with what helps you and dismiss what you don't like, then accuse other people or rationalization.
 
What does speak volumes, though, is after all of that, and Serino's recommendation of manslaughter, Serino still comes out and says, Zimmerman's story is supported by the evidence and witness testimony.

Serino didn't quite say that.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event. Everything I have is adding up to what he says.
"

Notice that he says the best evidence they have is Zimmerman's testimony. In other words, the best evidence that Zimmerman's story is true is the story itself. Which wouldn't be the case if they had any solid corroborating evidence. Independent evidence is always better than the testimony of the accused.

"Everything I have is adding up to what what he says" could easily be interpreted as "I can't disprove anything he says", and considering that Serino wanted to charge Zimmerman, it seems the most logical interpretation.
 
Either, his story is going to be inconsistant because memory fails or he is a liar. If he is a liar, so is every other witness, who's story has been changed, since the initial interviews. Then, so is Trayvon Martin's father because he says he saw Trayvon over an hour after he was shot. Either you accept variations because of unreliable memory across the board or you don't and throw out everyone's statement. You don't get to agree with what helps you and dismiss what you don't like, then accuse other people or rationalization.

Uh... no.

See, here's the difference. Zimmerman has established himself as a dishonest person who will lie and connive to cover his ass. The bond hearing shenanigans prove that. This is a fact not in dispute.

Dishonest people shouldn't get the same benefit of the doubt as people whose integrity has not been damaged through their own deceitful actions.

If there are inconsistencies in Zimmerman's testimony, it is reasonable to assume they are the result of lies because we know Zimmerman is a liar. If there are inconsistencies in the testimony of witnesses, it is reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy.

And I posted this earlier, but received no response:
February 26th NEN call:
Dispatcher: Are you following him.

Zimmerman: Yeah.
February 29th interview with Investigator Serino:
Zimmerman: I wasn't following him. I was just going in the same direction he was.


What rationalization can you offer for that "inconsistency"?
 
As I've stated, the first interview will be the most reliable. In the initial interview, he says he got out to see which direction he is running and to get an address. In the 911 call: ..."**** he's running."

Ok, but later on he denies getting out to follow him. That's not credible, right?

The dispatcher respons at about 2:11"He's running? Which way is he running?" After that question, George opens the door to get out of the car.

Actually no, you hear the door opening before the dispatcher asks the question, so you have that reversed.

There is nothing about that interview and the way the call transpired that tells me he is lying. I don't clearly hear him running.

Really? He's out of breath and you hear the wind. They ask him about it and he says "it was windy". Again, I think you've just decided to accept everything he says for some reason.
You may want to clearly hear him running but it doesn't sound like the sharp interruptions in a person's voice you would get when they run while talking.

So he gets out of breath from walking, looking for a street sign? He doesn't seem out of breath during his walkthrough.

You create a dochotomy and then explain it with your own inventions. What do you have that says that there is no close contact?

He only mentions "checking him out once" which starts around 30 seconds into the call. If he's at the clubhouse at the start of the call, how can this happen at the T? It can't. Especially since he claims he parked at the clubhouse, which would make him have to back out, drive down to the T, and then after parking at the T he saw Trayvon, walk off the grass, then around the corner, then back again, then out onto the street. How long would that take? At least 30 more seconds. It's physically impossible.

That's a relatively easy conclusion to come to, when you established, long before the statements were released, that he is a liar.

That's the problem with lying. It makes people doubt your word?

It sounds to me, based on the first interview, that he stopped at the clubhouse to make the call and Trayvon walked past him. He followed Trayvon around the corner, to down by the T. That's when Trayvon came back to check him out, this is when Zimmerman says, "he's checking me out."


No, this is impossible.

A few seconds later, Trayvon runs. The dispatcher asks which direction he ran and George gets out of the car.

Again, you have this reversed.

By the walk through, he is already unclear, mixing up events, and confabulating impressions he got from the dispatcher with actual requests (which direction is he running beccomes, can you get to a point where you can see him). Either, his story is going to be inconsistant because memory fails or he is a liar. If he is a liar, so is every other witness, who's story has been changed, since the initial interviews. Then, so is Trayvon Martin's father because he says he saw Trayvon over an hour after he was shot. Either you accept variations because of unreliable memory across the board or you don't and throw out everyone's statement. You don't get to agree with what helps you and dismiss what you don't like, then accuse other people or rationalization.

The problem is that the version he ends up with is physically impossible and he resisted all opportunities to clear things up.
 
Serino didn't quite say that.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event. Everything I have is adding up to what he says.
"

Notice that he says the best evidence they have is Zimmerman's testimony. In other words, the best evidence that Zimmerman's story is true is the story itself. Which wouldn't be the case if they had any solid corroborating evidence. Independent evidence is always better than the testimony of the accused.

"Everything I have is adding up to what what he says" could easily be interpreted as "I can't disprove anything he says", and considering that Serino wanted to charge Zimmerman, it seems the most logical interpretation.
Seriono, As his boss gives the media statement that overrules him:

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Oh yeah. If looks could kill.
 
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