Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes it is. The act of shooting the kid is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not Trayvon Martin attacked him for no reason at all, in a fit of homicidal rage, as George claims. If George is lying (and at this point are you claiming his story holds up?) then what's left?

A shooting of an unarmed kid, by a guy who pegged him wrongly for a criminal and then followed him and ignored all common sense. And then lied his ass off about the events that night. And you think a jury will have trouble convicting under those circumstances?

I'm not the one to be debating the legality aspect - but AFAIK, GZ still gets to use self defense, even if he he started the fight. Not SYG, but self defense. The case does not hinge on TM attacking GZ for no reason. And even if it did, although you do not believe GZ, we have yet to see any evidence ( and the state conceded at the bond hearing they don't have any ) that demonstrates GZ was the aggressor. We have evidence that the first person to speak was TM ... which certainly lends support to the idea that TM iniated a verbal confrontation, that led to a physical confrontation.

Whether yo believe GZ tried to detain TM or not, the state has not shown us any evidence or proof that is what he did.

 

[sgtbaker]

Maybe. But care to address the point above about how he was at the clubhouse for the "circling" but then in the re-enactment that whole scene moved to the "T"?

In the interview on the 29th he seem genuinely unsure of exactly what took place where. I think it goes directly to my point that each time the event is recalled more detail get jumbled. By the time he does the walk through, that is the third time he's recalled the events of that night.

 

[sgtbaker]

Witness 2.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/ne...an-trayvon-martin-case-released-to-the-public

Does anyone else notice that witness one's story is identical to witness two's original story? They were both cooking dinner when they saw one figure chasing another and they were both turning the stove off, when they heard the shot. It wouldn't be so weird if they didn't live in the same house. How many stoves do they have? Then, witness two's story is entirely different when she goes to the state attorney's office. She was upstairs when she heard the shot, not downstairs in the kitchen. I tried to see if they had similar voices but I can't tell, with the distortion of one call being recorded over the phone but he made both interviews on the 1st so I am inclined to believe they are two separate people.

 

[Amazer]

I'm not the one to be debating the legality aspect - but AFAIK, GZ still gets to use self defense, even if he he started the fight. Not SYG, but self defense. The case does not hinge on TM attacking GZ for no reason. And even if it did, although you do not believe GZ, we have yet to see any evidence ( and the state conceded at the bond hearing they don't have any ) that demonstrates GZ was the aggressor. We have evidence that the first person to speak was TM ... which certainly lends support to the idea that TM iniated a verbal confrontation, that led to a physical confrontation.

Whether yo believe GZ tried to detain TM or not, the state has not shown us any evidence or proof that is what he did.

If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.

 

[Unabogie]

In the interview on the 29th he seem genuinely unsure of exactly what took place where. I think it goes directly to my point that each time the event is recalled more detail get jumbled. By the time he does the walk through, that is the third time he's recalled the events of that night.

Yes, but here's the rub, and why I'm wondering if you've listened to the tapes and watched the walkthrough. It's the walkthrough that's impossible, and that happened last. On the NEN call, he's clearly at the clubhouse when he talked about Trayvon approaching his car. This is when he pulled ahead of Trayvon and Trayvon is on his way home. This all takes place in about 1 minute. But in the 29th interview, he's still saying it took place at the clubhouse, until it's pointed out to him how that doesn't make sense. The next time, he's moved it to the T and he says that Trayvon ran around the corner, came back again, back out onto the street, and then circled his car. This is his final version and it's impossible both in terms of timing and because it directly contradicts his NEN and earlier statements.

There is no way this is confusion that was cleared up in his mind. His final version is a fantasy. He's clearly lying here.

Again, open up Google maps, then do the following in order:

1. NEN
2. Version from the 29th
3. Walkthrough.

And then come back and tell me it still makes sense to you.

 

[crimresearch]

If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.

And what is your point?

As you already know, 'being the aggressor' in that sense (staring at Martin, calling the police, following, and saying 'What are you doing here?' when questioned), does nothing to take away the right to self defense.

The court requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was either committing a forcible felony, or that Martin did not grab for the gun first.

The first isn't even on the table, and the last doesn't look like it can be proven with what has been shown so far.

 

[GWCarver]

Does anyone else notice that witness one's story is identical to witness two's original story? They were both cooking dinner when they saw one figure chasing another and they were both turning the stove off, when they heard the shot. It wouldn't be so weird if they didn't live in the same house. How many stoves do they have? Then, witness two's story is entirely different when she goes to the state attorney's office. She was upstairs when she heard the shot, not downstairs in the kitchen. I tried to see if they had similar voices but I can't tell, with the distortion of one call being recorded over the phone but he made both interviews on the 1st so I am inclined to believe they are two separate people.

I went to your link and listened to W1's interview (W1_SPD03012012.wav). She thought it was kids playing at first, saw hands waving around, and the neighbor come out. The interviewer mentions her sister, and asks about her sister seeing the figures running. She says her sister was upstairs at the time of the shooting, and she hadn't talked to her about what she had seen.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.

Assuming is not proving beyond a reasonable doubt, is it ?

 

[sgtbaker]

Yes, but here's the rub, and why I'm wondering if you've listened to the tapes and watched the walkthrough. It's the walkthrough that's impossible, and that happened last. On the NEN call, he's clearly at the clubhouse when he talked about Trayvon approaching his car. This is when he pulled ahead of Trayvon and Trayvon is on his way home. This all takes place in about 1 minute. But in the 29th interview, he's still saying it took place at the clubhouse, until it's pointed out to him how that doesn't make sense. The next time, he's moved it to the T and he says that Trayvon ran around the corner, came back again, back out onto the street, and then circled his car. This is his final version and it's impossible both in terms of timing and because it directly contradicts his NEN and earlier statements.

There is no way this is confusion that was cleared up in his mind. His final version is a fantasy. He's clearly lying here.

Again, open up Google maps, then do the following in order:

1. NEN
2. Version from the 29th
3. Walkthrough.

And then come back and tell me it still makes sense to you.

I watched the walkthrough, when it was released on the news, and I watched it again, when it was linked here, because the news started talking over the video, at the point where Zimmerman was explaining how he was holding Trayvons hands out. I listened to the audio, again, last night. The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?

Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.

 

[sgtbaker]

I went to your link and listened to W1's interview (W1_SPD03012012.wav). She thought it was kids playing at first, saw hands waving around, and the neighbor come out. The interviewer mentions her sister, and asks about her sister seeing the figures running. She says her sister was upstairs at the time of the shooting, and she hadn't talked to her about what she had seen.

Yes, her version is more detailed but the elements are identical. The third link from the bottom of the grouping of Witness 2's statement is taken on the same day as witness 1's. Listen to one, and then the other, then listen to witness 2's statement with the state department, and then tell me something is not weird, there.

 

[Noztradamus]

Just one ... that matches up more with GZ story of TM disappearing between the houses then coming back ?

Except on the NEN timeline "the circling" would have to take place at the latest more than 3 minutes before the first witness 911 call reporting the fight at 7:16:11, so for Witness #2 to see Martin before he went back and "circled" there would be a gap of 4-5 minutes witness #2 did not report.

And that begs the question "Why did George not specifically mention the circling."

 

[Noztradamus]

~~~~
The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?

But we have a real time statement from George on where he was when he was directing the cops to his truck

Zimmerman: Naaah…you go in straight through the entrance…and then you make a left…uh…yea, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left- ah ****. He's running.

"and make a left". He's on the east west section of Twin Trees, not at the clubhouse.

 

[sgtbaker]

But we have a real time statement from George on where he was when he was directing the cops to his truck

Zimmerman: Naaah…you go in straight through the entrance…and then you make a left…uh…yea, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left- ah ****. He's running.

"and make a left". He's on the east west section of Twin Trees, not at the clubhouse.

That sounds like incredibly clear directions to exactly where he was.

 

[Noztradamus]

That sounds like incredibly clear directions to exactly where he was.

Yeah, George sucks at giving directions. He can tell you what it looks like where he is, but not how he got there.

 

[sgtbaker]

Yeah, George sucks at giving directions. He can tell you what it looks like where he is, but not how he got there.

Not all that uncommon. Visual processing of memory is the most accurate.

 

[Unabogie]

I watched the walkthrough, when it was released on the news, and I watched it again, when it was linked here, because the news started talking over the video, at the point where Zimmerman was explaining how he was holding Trayvons hands out. I listened to the audio, again, last night. The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?

Ok, on this note, there's a theory that more closely matches the facts and seems to be where Serino is as well. NOTE: This is my theory. It seems to fit, but I'm not saying it's all true. I don't know, ok? Speculation ahead!

George sees Trayvon and pulls up by the clubhouse. He does NOT park in the lot, as he said, but stops by the curb. That's when Trayvon walks past him. He's not lying about that, yet. So he follows him on a slow drive. This fits the timeline. He's over where he jumps out in less than a minute. He drove there and never stopped at the clubhouse. He's lying about this because following him in his car the whole time makes him look like a stalker.

Trayvon sees him doing the slow drive and runs. George follows.

So he arrives somewhere near the T and jumps out of his car. This is way past the time that Trayvon walked past his car. There is no circling of the car since as soon as he arrives near the T he jumps out and follows.

Next, here's why I think they ended up 25' south of the T. He tells the dispatcher that he's following and when he's told to stop, 1:20 later he hangs up. So maybe he wasn't even parked where he says. Maybe he parked in a different spot than he claimed. The timeline would fit better. At some point, near the T, he finds Trayvon. This is only a few minutes from the first moment he calls the police, and Google maps says it takes 4:00 to get from 1440 to the T on foot.

Zimmerman does his "What are you doing here" routine. Trayvon does his "why are you following me for". Zimmerman grabs him by the arm and Trayvon punches him. Zimmerman goes down or simply backs up. Trayvon runs back south. This would explain why witnesses saw them running past, either one of them or both of them.

Zimmerman runs up to affect his citizen's arrest and they fall to the ground. Zimmerman could very well be the person screaming, but maybe just to get someone to help him detain the kid. There is no evidence that punches are being thrown here. Trayvon gets up on top. Maybe they roll around and swap places.

At least this scenario would explain the timeline and where they ended up. As I said, this is what the police thought as well, which is why they kept asking him if he tried to detain the kid.

ETA: And in this scenario, George could indeed have been scared. But his dishonesty revolves around removing any mention of his own actions that led to the fight.

Remember, in his version, he never says a single word to Trayvon. Not once! And yet Trayvon attacks him and wants to kill him, saying "you gonna die tonight, ************" all without George ever giving him any provocation at all! This is where I think George is doing the most lying. He wanted to catch Trayvon and made some sort of attempt to do so. That's what caused all this.

Again, that's clearly what the police thought, and nothing else explains George's many lies.

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman does his "What are you doing here" routine. Trayvon does his "why are you following me for".

So DeeDee is lying to help Zimmerman?

The quoted part is useful though. The state will have to manufacture a theory of the crime that fits the evidence and shows criminal behavior. Then they have to provide evidence for that theory. Not an easy task.

This case is not built around credibility. That's just another Team Crump talking point. There is an incredible amount of independant evidence here. Hopefully, this week we get the 911 call log and DeeDee's redacted phone records. Then we can stich everything to gather to see how long Zimmerman went unobserved. I think the results may be suprising.

 

[Noztradamus]

Ok, on this note, there's a theory that more closely matches the facts and seems to be where Serino is as well. NOTE: This is my theory. It seems to fit, but I'm not saying it's all true. I don't know, ok? Speculation ahead!

George sees Trayvon and pulls up by the clubhouse. He does NOT park in the lot, as he said, but stops by the curb. That's when Trayvon walks past him. He's not lying about that, yet. So he follows him on a slow drive. This fits the timeline. He's over where he jumps out in less than a minute. He drove there and never stopped at the clubhouse. He's lying about this because following him in his car the whole time makes him look like a stalker.

Trayvon sees him doing the slow drive and runs. George follows.

So he arrives somewhere near the T and jumps out of his car. This is way past the time that Trayvon walked past his car. There is no circling of the car since as soon as he arrives near the T he jumps out and follows.

Next, here's why I think they ended up 25' south of the T. He tells the dispatcher that he's following and when he's told to stop, 1:20 later he hangs up. So maybe he wasn't even parked where he says. Maybe he parked in a different spot than he claimed. The timeline would fit better. At some point, near the T, he finds Trayvon. This is only a few minutes from the first moment he calls the police, and Google maps says it takes 4:00 to get from 1440 to the T on foot.



~~~
Again, that's clearly what the police thought, and nothing else explains George's many lies.

Extreme alternative speculation ahead (verges to WMG tererritory)

c.1909 George sees Martin emerge from the short cut, slows done to stalk/drive very slowly for some random reason

c.1910 (+1 minute) Martin turns south onto the walkway west of the clubhouse
George gets a brainwave, drives by the clubhouse to get ahead of "the suspect", doesn't stop by the clubhouse but reverses his truck on the E-W section of Twin Trees where he can observe the clubhouse

1911:12 (+2 minutes) George phones NEN

c.1912 (+3 minutes) Martin, having crossed under the veranda at the south of the clubhouse. emerges by the post boxes "19:11:52 He's here now and he’s just staring…" [yeah Dude, you are behaving weird. what with following, turning around, and parking with your headlights on ]

1912:30 "Ayup, he's coming to check me out."

c.1913(+4 minutes) Martin reaches George's truck and "circles it"/walks around it because George has parked it in his path. Once clear...

19:13:18 "ah ****. He's running."

c.1913:30 George loses sight of Martin when he sees Martin turn south

 

[Unabogie]

So DeeDee is lying to help Zimmerman?

The quoted part is useful though. The state will have to manufacture a theory of the crime that fits the evidence and shows criminal behavior. Then they have to provide evidence for that theory. Not an easy task.

This case is not built around credibility. That's just another Team Crump talking point. There is an incredible amount of independant evidence here. Hopefully, this week we get the 911 call log and DeeDee's redacted phone records. Then we can stich everything to gather to see how long Zimmerman went unobserved. I think the results may be suprising.

Where is DD lying? This doesn't help Zimmerman. It merely explains what happened. And stop with the "Team Crump" stuff. This is about the State of Florida vs George Zimmerman. You can try and pin your hopes on some sort of gotcha regarding DD, but George has already sunk himself. Did you listen to his interrogation? He cannot explain himself. His story is full of holes. He has lied multiple times and can't explain the very basics of his account: why? Why did Trayvon Martin attack him with no provocation? In his account, Trayvon attacked him and nothing was said between them Trayvon stalked him and then tried to kill him. Based on his other lies and the ridiculousness of his interview, how can you still buy his version of the events that night? Do you not see how his timeline cannot be true? How he made up the part about circling his car? How he lied about returning to the car after the phone call to NEN? How his version of the dialogue makes no sense? How his claim that he wasn't following Traybon seems absurd? How his anger and frustration show in his phone call, yet he claims he didn't even want to catch Trayvon?

So keep trying to make this about "Team Crump". I stand by my prediction that George will be convicted or will plea down to manslaughter. He will not be acquitted.

 

[Unabogie]

Extreme alternative speculation ahead (verges to WMG tererritory)

c.1909 George sees Martin emerge from the short cut, slows done to stalk/drive very slowly for some random reason

c.1910 (+1 minute) Martin turns south onto the walkway west of the clubhouse
George gets a brainwave, drives by the clubhouse to get ahead of "the suspect", doesn't stop by the clubhouse but reverses his truck on the E-W section of Twin Trees where he can observe the clubhouse

1911:12 (+2 minutes) George phones NEN

c.1912 (+3 minutes) Martin, having crossed under the veranda at the south of the clubhouse. emerges by the post boxes "19:11:52 He's here now and he’s just staring…" [yeah Dude, you are behaving weird. what with following, turning around, and parking with your headlights on ]

1912:30 "Ayup, he's coming to check me out."

c.1913(+4 minutes) Martin reaches George's truck and "circles it"/walks around it because George has parked it in his path. Once clear...

19:13:18 "ah ****. He's running."

c.1913:30 George loses sight of Martin when he sees Martin turn south

Except he's on tape saying that he's right at the clubhouse, then seconds later that's where Trayvon "checks him out". That's why it's impossible he was parked there, but also why it's impossible that the "circling" happened at the T, as he claims in his walkthrough. For me, it's the way the walkthrough doesn't match the NEN that sinks him. He made up a narrative that helps him appear as though he wasn't following and only went to look for an address, but in doing so, he contradicts himself in such a grievous way that I don't see how he can explain himself later. And his scenario about Trayvon running behind the rows, then coming back, and THEN circling the car, is so detailed, that if he's making that up, it just devastates his credibility. And the NEN proves he's making that up. I don't see an out for the guy.