General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

It is always a pleasure to deal with an expert. I wonder if you could assist me?
I am unable to locate the following items of Holocaust evidentiary material in any archive:
- 1 steam chamber (IMT XXXII 153-158, III 567);
- 1 electrical chamber (IMT VII 576-577, XII 369);
- 1 German atomic bomb (for instant cremation work at Auschwitz) (IMT XVI 529);
- 1 tree (used as murder weapon) (IMT VII 582);
- 1 portable oven (IMT VII 586);
- 1 pedal-driven brain bashing machine (IMT VII 376-377);
- 1 bone-grinding machine (IMT VII 439, 549-550, 446, 593);
- 1 spanking machine (IMT VI 213);
- 1 lampshade of human skin (IMT XXXII 258, 259, 261, 263, 265, 269);
- 1 pocket book and 1 pair of driving gloves, all of human skin (IMT XXX 352, 355);
- 1 pornographic picture painted on canvas of human skin (IMT XXX 469);
- 1 book bound in human skin (IMT VI 331);
- 1 saddle, 1 pair of riding breeches, 1 glove, 1 house slipper, 1 ladies' handbag, all of human skin (IMT V 171);
- 1 torture box (disguised as an ordinary wardrobe) (IMT XVI 561, 546, 556-557);
- 1 chair stuffed with human hair (IMT XIX 506);
- 1 mattress stuffed with human hair (IMT I, 252)
- 1 pair of human hair socks (IMT XXXIX 552-553, XX 353
- 1 jar of human soap (IMT VII 597-601);
- 1 piece of tanned human skin.
We know these objects existed, because they were "proven" at Nuremberg by means of "official documents" and "sworn statements". But nobody knows where any of it is. Since most of the evidence is of Soviet origin, could it be in Moscow? Please advise. I should be most grateful for any assistance in this matter.

Nuremberg the KANGAROO of all trials.

With this result

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1199125

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehmat View Post
Holohoax is a great CASH COW - and must be kept alive. It has given Israel more than US$3 trillion from the US, Germany and Switzerland.

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie, Rehmat. Once international jewry set the tone by extorting billions in reparations out of Germany on an annual basis (and, as far as the jew is concerned, for as long as Germany remains on the planet), Seagrams ex-CEO and former president of the World Jewish Congress Edgar Bronfman went to work breaking the banks of Switzerland, also to the tune of billions. Virtually every Holohoax memorial and museum in the US is funded by taxpayer dollars. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum in DC alone receives roughly $40 million a year for its annual budget. What these jews operating this particular Holohoax scam do with all that loot is anybody's guess. (Gee, you don't think that they're actually pocketing most of that mon--...nah, couldn't be.) And speaking of this particular museum, founding chairman Elie Wiesel said that the whole purpose of this circus was "to turn every visitor that walks through its doors into a jew." Naturally, he didn't mean that in a literal sense (after all, jews aren't looking for converts to horn in on their self-proclaimed status as being "God's Chosen People"), he was thinking more in the calculated sense of just how much more sympathy and shekels could be elicited from the goyim stupid enough to buy into the whole Holohoax fable. After all, as insider jews are fond of saying amongst themselves, "There's no business like Shoah business."

And think about this: the Holohoax is the only historic event ever to have occurred outside US territory, across an ocean and not involving American citizens, that has memorials and museums galore dedicated to its memory across the nation from NY to California. Where are the memorials to the 20-30 million Christians murdered by Stalin's judeocommunists from the 1930s through the '50s? Or the 60-70 million zips that Mao knocked off in the name of Marxist-Leninism? (Compared to China's "Great Helmsman", the USSR's "Uncle Joe" was a lightweight; ****, a bantamweight.) Of course, no one else matters except the jew. During WWII, an estimated 50 million people died worldwide as a result of the conflict. The overwhelming majority of Americans couldn't even begin to guess at the number of people who died around the globe in a war instigated by jewry, but you can bet your ass that virtually all of them, from elementary school kids on up to octogenarians in nursing homes, can tell you without a moment's hesitation just how many jews supposedly died at the hands of the evil Germans. To me, that speaks volumes...

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, but you seem to be saying that those 100 wouldn't have mattered,

The usual Holocaustic fabrication. Did you learn that from reading the Nuremberg testimonies?

 

[TSR]

Nuremberg the KANGAROO of all trials.

Which, of course explains why some of the accused were found not guilty, and why some of the guilty were acquitted on some counts., and why the defendants were allowed to choose their own lawyers (most of whom were German ...

Perhaps you can explain to us what *specific* issues you had with them, so we can correct you?

Right after you tell is how it is that death threats are 94% effective and yet each and every Jew in the camp was a walking time bomb...

 

[TSR]

The usual Holocaustic fabrication. Did you learn that from reading the Nuremberg testimonies?

No, that's how it seems to me. Tell us -- at what number does mass murder become genocide, given that the intent of genocide was made clear before Hitler ever came to power?

Which fabrications did you have in mind in the *testimony* before the IMT? I mean, since you've never read it, what those more clever deniers than you tell you what to say on this question?

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, that's how it seems to me. Tell us -- at what number does mass murder become genocide, given that the intent of genocide was made clear before Hitler ever came to power?

Really? And the Jewish people took their children to the alleged death camps after knowing this for about a decade?

 

[Nessie]

Nessie,

Ok, this is starting to - finally - go somewhere. I will shut up for now - after all, it will take me very long to try to figure out what SnakeTongue and his yellow hiliting are going on about - but it would be useful for you to spell out where you think (let's drop orthodox, ok) historians have not offered good explanations. Perhaps give us a dozen issues. Then we can discuss your view and what (I think) historians have written and why (I don't think) deniers have helped . . .

I haven't listened to the show yet - what is your take on Berg and Muehlenkamp, other than that our mutual friend's prediction was goofy?

LC

I am sure after a dodgy start we can progress.

Re the radio debate, it was a struggle to listen to because of the numerous advert breaks, which really broke it up. I thought the lady host (name escapes me Spinoza?) did well to make it clear who should speak, how long for and kept themn to that. The ad hominems were mild and it did not descend into a slanging match. Both Roberto and Berg sounded nervous and stumbled a lot, but neither panicked or froze. I do think Berg sounded arrogant and smug and Roberto more reasonable.

As for the points, both got in their arguments, nothing new came from them and if you were inclined to one side or another, there was nothing to make you change your mind. To be brutally honest, if you were undecided or had never heard about the topic before, I don't think you would that sure who to believe over who.

For me the best point was scored by Roberto when Berg had made claims about witnesses lying and Roberto responded with just how many witnesses that would need, from so many countries and such was really a wild conspiracy that would be impossible to achieve.

 

[Nessie]

Just saw this one. Okay, you have always been honest, that is for sure, calling things as you see them. What threw me was the reference to "orthodox history," and, although it still does confuse me, I accept your explanation.

And hope you'll list out where historians fall short, in your opinion, so we can discuss that.

I used that term to differentiate between the history and events of the Holocaust as presented by sources directed more at the general public such as Anne Frank's House, Wikipedia, tours of the camps and museums and the work of historians of the Holocaust, what I called orthodox history to try and further differentiate, but accept now it only confused.

IME they have diverged such that my first encounters with historical research on the Sceptic Forum left me feeling that what the public gets is out of date and sometimes inaccurate, not to a devastating extent such that the public are hoodwinked, but they could get better information.

I can tell you now that top of my list of where I think revisionism/deniers have done a better job that historians is in the call for full, detailed, forensic achaelogical examinations of the Action Reinhard sites. In the radio debate between Roberto and Berg, Berg called for Roberto to get a spade and start digging and on that I agree. I have been a to a couple of digs, Roman remains found near where I live and in York of the Viking settlement there. The detail that can be found is huge and I think it is lacking at the AR sites. Sturdy-Coils made mention of finding traces of building remains with ground radar at Treblinka II as well as ground disturbance from digging. Why not drill and dig and uncover the archaeology and soil samples and answer revisionist/denier claims as well as enhancing historian's claims about the site?

There is a ton of evidence out there, it should be uncovered and not left buried.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Re the radio debate, . . .

Thanks. I plan to listen to a podcast of it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I can tell you now that top of my list of where I think revisionism/deniers have done a better job that historians is in the call for full, detailed, forensic achaelogical examinations of the Action Reinhard sites. In the radio debate between Roberto and Berg, Berg called for Roberto to get a spade and start digging and on that I agree. I have been a to a couple of digs, Roman remains found near where I live and in York of the Viking settlement there. The detail that can be found is huge and I think it is lacking at the AR sites. Sturdy-Coils made mention of finding traces of building remains with ground radar at Treblinka II as well as ground disturbance from digging. Why not drill and dig and uncover the archaeology and soil samples and answer revisionist/denier claims as well as enhancing historian's claims about the site?

There is a ton of evidence out there, it should be uncovered and not left buried.

Well, that's not much of an accomplishment for them, now, is it? To call for something is rather easy and doesn't tell anyone very much.

Have you read Roberto's HC blog postings on the archaeological work done at AR camps and Chelmno? What are the major questions you think this work needs to resolve? And you're implying, by saying "Why not drill and dig" that Holocaust historians are against such work, the very kind of work that Krege, with his lawn mover machine, flubbed (before going into hiding) and Sturdy Colls is doing? I'm not clear on what the issue is . . .

 

[TSR]

Really?

Yes, really.

And the Jewish people took their children to the alleged death camps after knowing this for about a decade?

Ummmm. Who told you that the death camps operated for a decade? Whoever it was lied to you, or parroted a lie they'd been told.

Because the death camps didn't.

And that's a very curious way to spell "were forced by men with guns and dogs and the authority of the State at their back to board trains along with their children, in many cases leaving almost all of their possession behind".

Do you *ever* give a straight answer to a direct question? Which fabrications did you have in mind in the *testimony* before the IMT? And at what number does mass murder become genocide, given that the intent of genocide was made clear before Hitler ever came to power?

 

[A'isha]

I will never understand CM's bizarre apparent belief that the Holocaust was voluntary.

 

[TSR]

I will never understand CM's bizarre apparent belief that the Holocaust was voluntary.

It all boils down to SooperJooos^TM.

Death threats that would have 94% of us mere mortals becoming very compliant don't work on them.

SooperJooos^TM!

They subvert governments all over the world so very subtely that it goes unnoticed every one but a handful of bigots.

They're SooperJooos^TM!!

They control all the mass media, in every country of the world.

They're SooperJooos^TM!!!

AND THERE'S ONE UNDER HIS BED RIGHT NOW!!!!

SooperJoos is a registered trademark of Racists 'R' Us, Inc. All rights reserved

 

[Dogzilla]

Mondial, how many countries in the World don't have Holocaust denial laws?

How many countries that are in possession of holocaust-related archives do?

Why is holocaust denial so dangerous that any country needs to ban it?

Why do historians need the force of law to educate the public about the truth of the holocaust?

Why is six million Jews not being exterminated so offensive to some people?

What exactly is the price of tea in China?

 

[thedopefishlives]

Why is six million Jews not being exterminated so offensive to some people?

I'm highlighting this one specifically because I can't believe you actually have the stones to ask it. The reason is the same as why people get so offended and upset at the suggestion by 9/11 Twoofers that 3,000+ people didn't die in the Towers, on the planes, and at the Pentagon: That's not just a statistic, those are real live people. They are mothers, they are fathers, they are wives, they are husbands, they are brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles. They leave very real voids in people's lives, and to suggest that what actually happened to them did not happen is incredibly offensive.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yes, really.

Ummmm. Who told you that the death camps operated for a decade? Whoever it was lied to you, or parroted a lie they'd been told.

Because the death camps didn't.

And that's a very curious way to spell "were forced by men with guns and dogs and the authority of the State at their back to board trains along with their children, in many cases leaving almost all of their possession behind".

Do you *ever* give a straight answer to a direct question? Which fabrications did you have in mind in the *testimony* before the IMT? And at what number does mass murder become genocide, given that the intent of genocide was made clear before Hitler ever came to power?

Notice the double talk. Everyone knew of Hitler's intent of genocide.


Originally Posted by TSR View Post
No, that's how it seems to me. Tell us -- at what number does mass murder become genocide, given that the intent of genocide was made clear before Hitler ever came to power?

Clayton Moore

Really? And the Jewish people took their children to the alleged death camps after knowing this for about a decade?

 

[Mondial]

True. Strange how the CT nuts would want to say if a single person who claimed to have been victimized turns out to be a liar, the entire historical event never happened.

Does that mean if any one single Holocaust denier turns out to be a liar their entire POV is false?

Just checking.

Elie Wiesel isn't the only holocaust survivor propagandist to have been proven a liar. www.eliewieseltattoo.com There are many such frauds. Simon Wiesenthal was a liar. www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml Jan Karski was a liar. www.cwporter.com/karski.htm Rudolf Vrba was a liar. www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p417_Faurisson.html Jankiel Wiernik was a liar. www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p-91_Kehl.html Abraham Bomba was a liar. www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p244_Smith.html etc etc etc.

 

[TSR]

Notice the double talk. Everyone knew of Hitler's intent of genocide.

No double talk, and where did I say "everyone knew"?

You really ought to stop trying to twist things, CM.

It was clear, but no one much was paying attention to that side of things.

And I note that you *still* haven't answered the question: at what number does mass murder become genocide and, to follow up, does that make mass murder less horrific?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Elie Wiesel isn't the only holocaust survivor propagandist to have been proven a liar. www.eliewieseltattoo.com There are many such frauds. Simon Wiesenthal was a liar. www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml Jan Karski was a liar. www.cwporter.com/karski.htm Rudolf Vrba was a liar. www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p417_Faurisson.html Jankiel Wiernik was a liar. www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p-91_Kehl.html Abraham Bomba was a liar. www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p244_Smith.html etc etc etc.

Don't forget Steven Spielberg and Irene Zisblatt.

 

[Mondial]

It is always a pleasure to deal with an expert. I wonder if you could assist me?
I am unable to locate the following items of Holocaust evidentiary material in any archive:
- 1 steam chamber (IMT XXXII 153-158, III 567);
- 1 electrical chamber (IMT VII 576-577, XII 369);
- 1 German atomic bomb (for instant cremation work at Auschwitz) (IMT XVI 529);
- 1 tree (used as murder weapon) (IMT VII 582);
- 1 portable oven (IMT VII 586);
- 1 pedal-driven brain bashing machine (IMT VII 376-377);
- 1 bone-grinding machine (IMT VII 439, 549-550, 446, 593);
- 1 spanking machine (IMT VI 213);
- 1 lampshade of human skin (IMT XXXII 258, 259, 261, 263, 265, 269);
- 1 pocket book and 1 pair of driving gloves, all of human skin (IMT XXX 352, 355);
- 1 pornographic picture painted on canvas of human skin (IMT XXX 469);
- 1 book bound in human skin (IMT VI 331);
- 1 saddle, 1 pair of riding breeches, 1 glove, 1 house slipper, 1 ladies' handbag, all of human skin (IMT V 171);
- 1 torture box (disguised as an ordinary wardrobe) (IMT XVI 561, 546, 556-557);
- 1 chair stuffed with human hair (IMT XIX 506);
- 1 mattress stuffed with human hair (IMT I, 252)
- 1 pair of human hair socks (IMT XXXIX 552-553, XX 353
- 1 jar of human soap (IMT VII 597-601);
- 1 piece of tanned human skin.
We know these objects existed, because they were "proven" at Nuremberg by means of "official documents" and "sworn statements". But nobody knows where any of it is. Since most of the evidence is of Soviet origin, could it be in Moscow? Please advise. I should be most grateful for any assistance in this matter.

Nuremberg was a show trial if ever there was one. www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html One standard for the victors and one standard for the defeated. The soviet prosecution even accused the defendants of committing the Katyn massacre of which they were responsible. www.katyn.org.au Many prominent judges and jurists of the day dismissed the legal validity of the trials including US supreme court justice Harlan Fiske Stone who referred to them as a "sanctimonious fraud" and a "lynching party".

 

[I am Bigfoot]

Clayton. You have a hypothetical choice.
Either get killed now. Or killed later.
Which do you pick?
Why?
Which should the victims of the Holocaust have picked?