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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
There were no gassings. Hence the Germans had no final solution plan, by extermination, for the Jewish people of Europe .
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The illiteracy on display in this post is astonishing, even for Mr Moore. He argues that without gas chambers, there could be no genocide of Europe's Jews.

Leaving aside that no other genocide has made use of gas chambers, Mr Moore's equation doesn't stand up for the Holocaust. Of the 5 million plus Jewish victims of the Nazis, 2.2 million were not killed in camps at all - but by shooting or by various means in ghettos. The Nazis could have killed all their victims by these "other" methods had they not opted for adding the gas camp "weapon" to their genocide arsenal.

Of course, we've been over this many times; and of course Mr Moore never absorbed this simple point on account of his sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "nah nah nah."
 
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LemmyCaution said:
The illiteracy on display in this post is astonishing, even for Mr Moore. He argues that without gas chambers, there could be no genocide of Europe's Jews.

Leaving aside that no other genocide has made use of gas chambers, Mr Moore's equation doesn't stand up for the Holocaust. Of the 5 million plus Jewish victims of the Nazis, 2.2 million were not killed in camps at all - but by shooting or by various means in ghettos. The Nazis could have killed all their victims by these "other" methods had they not opted for adding the gas camp "weapon" to their genocide arsenal.

Of course, we've been over this many times; and of course Mr Moore never absorbed this simple point on account of his sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "nah nah nah."
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Really? The unmatched atrocity value of the fabricated 3,000,000 gassings of Jewish children, women, and men is what makes the Holocaust the Holocaust.

It is why the Holocaust numbers are allowed NOT to be debated.

It means that any fabrication that builds toward the religious 6 million prophecy is to be shrugged accurate.
 
Clayton Moore said:
It is why the Holocaust numbers are allowed NOT to be debated.
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The illiteracy on display in this post is astonishing, even for Mr Moore. He argues that the number of victims of the Nazis is not allowed to be debated - without specifying by whom - and yet historians have been debating the number of victims and revising their findings for years.

- Gerald Reitlinger between 4.2 million and 4.6 million
- Raul Hilberg around 5.1 million
- Isreal Gutman & Robert Rozett 5.6 - 5.8 million
- Martin Gilbert 5.7 million
- Simon Wiesenthal Center 5.8 million
- World Jewish Congress 1946 estimate, Jacob Lestchinsky, Lucy Dawidowicz, Leon Poliakov 5.9 million
- Wolgang Benz 5.3 - 6.3 million
 
TSR said:
Can you cite even *one* denier who has been killed *for denial* anywhere in the world?

Because I can cite a whole bunch of Jews who were killed in Nazi Germany because they were Jews...
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Hey, little clayton: you seem to have missed answering this...
 
LemmyCaution said:
But when it came to the Jews during WWII - ostracized and isolated, actually shoved into camps, truly threatened with death, and watching many of their number actually put to death - these tactics should not, you say over and over, have worked at all. Curious.
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And this.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Really? The unmatched atrocity value of the fabricated 3,000,000 gassings of Jewish children, women, and men is what makes the Holocaust the Holocaust.

It is why the Holocaust numbers are allowed NOT to be debated.

It means that any fabrication that builds toward the religious 6 million prophecy is to be shrugged accurate.
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What makes the holocaust the holocaust?
No, I don't think it matters how they died. If the evidence pointed towards more shootings and starvation, or death by machette it would still be a tragedy of recognisible status

Like the Stalags...
Or the Killing Fields...
Etc.
 
Skewing You.

Estimated Murdered

Hungary:
200,000

TOTAL:
5,693,851


http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/General/victimsEngl.html

Hungary 825,000 550,000

Total: 9,793,700 5,709,329


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust


Hungary 650,000 450,000 70

Total 8,861,800 5,933,900 67

The country totals are skewed to hell yet the total totals are almost dead on.

5,693,851
5,709,329
5,933,900


The usual facts nonsense.


http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/bldied.htm
Estimated Murdered
Albania:
200
Germany:
160,000
Belgium:
28,518
Bessarabie:
200,000
Bucovine:
124,632
Crete:
260
Denmark:
77
Estonia:
1,000
Finland:
11
France:
83,000
Greece:
65,000
Holland:
106,000
Hungary:
200,000
Italy:
8,000
Kos:
120
Lettonia:
80,000
Libya:
562
Lituania:
135,000
Luxemburg:
700
Macedonia:
7,122
Memel:
8,000
Norway:
728
Poland:
3,000,000
Rhodes:
1,700
Roumania:
40,000
Rhutenia:
60,000
Czechoslovakia:
217,000
Thrace:
4,221
Transylvania:
105,000
Soviet Union
1,000,000
Yougoslavia:
60,000
TOTAL:
5,693,851
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http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/General/victimsEngl.html

the life and experiences of Jews in each individual country during the Holocaust.

Country

Pre-war Jewish Population

Estimated Murdered
Austria 185,000 50,000
Belgium 66,000 25,000
Bohemia/Moravia 118,000 78,000
Bulgaria 50,000 0
Denmark 4,500 2,000
Finland 2,000 7
France 350,000 77,000
Germany 565,000 142,000
Greece 75,000 65,000
Hungary 825,000 550,000
Italy 44,500 7,500
Latvia 91,500 70,000
Lithuania 168,000 140,000
Luxembourg 3,500 1,000
Netherlands 140,000 100,000
Norway 1,700 762
Poland 3,300,000 3,000,000
Romania 609,000 270,000
Slovakia 89,000 71,000
Soviet Union 3,020,000 1,000,000
Yugoslavia 78,000 60,000
Total: 9,793,700 5,709,329
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust


country
The following figures from Lucy Dawidowicz show the annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe by (pre-war) country:[228] Country Estimated Pre-War
Jewish population Estimated killed Percent killed
Poland 3,300,000 3,000,000 90
Baltic countries 253,000 228,000 90
Germany & Austria 240,000 210,000 90
Bohemia & Moravia 90,000 80,000 89
Slovakia 90,000 75,000 83
Greece 70,000 54,000 77
Netherlands 140,000 105,000 75
Hungary 650,000 450,000 70
Byelorussian SSR 375,000 245,000 65
Ukrainian SSR 1,500,000 900,000 60
Belgium 65,000 40,000 60
Yugoslavia 43,000 26,000 60
Romania 600,000 300,000 50
Norway 2,173 890 41
France 350,000 90,000 26
Bulgaria 64,000 14,000 22
Italy 40,000 8,000 20
Luxembourg 5,000 1,000 20
Russian SFSR 975,000 107,000 11
Finland 2,000 22 1
Denmark 8,000 52 <1
Total 8,861,800 5,933,900 67
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Clayton Moore said:
The country totals are skewed to hell yet the total totals are almost dead on.
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Except you cherrypicked examples to "prove" a point, whilst the fact is, and my post showed this, scholars' estimated totals are not almost dead on, ranging as they do from 4+ million to 6+ million.
 
Tomtomkent said:
What makes the holocaust the holocaust?
No, I don't think it matters how they died. If the evidence pointed towards more shootings and starvation, or death by machette it would still be a tragedy of recognisible status

Like the Stalags...
Or the Killing Fields...
Etc.
Click to expand...
Obsession with gas chambers is listed in DSM-IV TR as a symptom of the condition which the manual describes as Holocaust denial. After all, some deniers seem, it is noted, to go so far as to believe that historians claim 6 million Jews were murdered in gas chambers. A strange malady indeed.

To check another of Mr Moore's obsessive claims, let's look at a few definitions of the term Holocaust.

The first two paragraphs of Wikipedia's definition of the Holocaust:

The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban,[3] from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler, throughout Nazi-occupied territory.[4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds perished.[5] In particular, over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' genocide of millions of people in other groups, including Romani, leftists, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin.[8] This was the most common definition from the end of WWII to the 1960s.[8] Using this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims is between 11 million and 17 million people.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

From the USHMM:

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. "Holocaust" is a word of Greek origin meaning "sacrifice by fire." The Nazis, who came to power in Germany in January 1933, believed that Germans were "racially superior" and that the Jews, deemed "inferior," were an alien threat to the so-called German racial community.

During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals.
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http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005143

From Jewish Virtual Library, citing Simon Wiesenthal Center:

The destruction of some 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their followers in Europe between the years 1933-1945. Other individuals and groups were persecuted and suffered grievously during this period, but only the Jews were marked for complete and utter annihilation. The term "Holocaust" - literally meaning "a completely burned sacrifice" - tends to suggest a sacrificial connotation to what occurred. The word Shoah, originally a Biblical term meaning widespread disaster, is the modern Hebrew equivalent.
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/wiesenthal_glossary.html

From the Yad Vashem Holocaust Resource Center:

The Holocaust, as presented in this resource center, is defined as the sum total of all anti-Jewish actions carried out by the Nazi regime between 1933 and 1945: from stripping the German Jews of their legal and economic status in the 1930s`; segregating and starvation in the various occupied countries; the murder of close to six million Jews in Europe. The Holocaust is part of a broader aggregate of acts of oppression and murder of various ethnic and political groups in Europe by the Nazis. Nevertheless, it has special significance due to the exceptional attitude with which its perpetrators – the Nazis – regarded their Jewish victims. In the Nazi terminology the Jews were referred to as “world Jewry,” a term unparalleled with respect to any other ethnic, ideological, or social group. The Nazis’ proclaimed goal was the eradication of European Jewry.

The biblical word Shoah (which has been used to mean “destruction” since the Middle Ages) became the standard Hebrew term for the murder of European Jewry as early as the early 1940s. The word Holocaust, which came into use in the 1950s as the corresponding term, originally meant a sacrifice burnt entirely on the altar. The selection of these two words with religious origins reflects recognition of the unprecedented nature and magnitude of the events. Many understand Holocaust as a general term for the crimes and horrors perpetrated by the Nazis; others go even farther and use it to encompass other acts of mass murder as well. Consequently, we consider it important to use the Hebrew word Shoah with regard to the murder of and persecution of European Jewry in other languages as well. Various interpretations of these historical events have given rise to several other terms with different shades of meaning: destruction (used in Raul Hilberg’s book), catastrophe (in use mainly in the research literature in Soviet Russia), and khurbn (destruction) and gezerot tash–tashah (the decrees of 1939–1945( (Used in ultra-orthodox communities).
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http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/resource_center/the_holocaust.asp

Not a gas chamber . . . yet.

So, to quote Nick Terry from a different context,
The most basic definition of the Holocaust is that it was a genocide of European Jews which was carried out as a systematic programme of murder.
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One could add that this systematic program had component parts or elements, which include ghettoization, open-air shootings, gas vans, gas chambers, forced labor camps, forced marches, etc.
 As Yad Vashem explains, the Holocaust is the "sum total" of these murder policies and actions. Discussions of the Holocaust, then, beginning with an understanding of the concept of "sum total," focus on the component parts, which leads to works on topics like extermination camps, ghettos, or pit shootings as well as surveys encompassing all the parts.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
It's not anything of the sort. It's knowing you're being lied to by people who are being served and benefit from those lies.

There were no gassings. Hence the Germans had no final solution plan, by extermination, for the Jewish people of Europe .

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p391_Luftl.html
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From your link:
In fact, Zyklon B is utterly unsuited for purposes of systematic mass murder. It can be used to fumigate, and it could be used to gas a group of persons occasionally. But for time considerations alone, quasi-industrial killing would simply be impossible.

Although the Prussic (hydrocyanic) acid contained in Zyklon B can, of course, kill quickly and certainly, the handling requirements for Zyklon B and the circumstances involved rule out any significant use for the mass killing of people.
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From the highlited sections, he appears to be a little confused. He agrees that it will quickly and successfully kill people, but also says it is unsuitable for massing killing.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Hitler essentially destroyed Germany. I'm sure that Germans realize that any hint of not TOTALLY Satanizing Hitler brings out the HUGE kick me sign and the equally HUGE kick me by association sign.


The bottom line is that today's Holocaust community, with leaps and bounds ferocity, demands that Jewish people could have been forced to do and unequivocally did the labor that enabled the alleged gassing of 3 million Jewish children, women, and men.
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I've been thinking about your position lately. You claim that the Jews would've leaped into furious action under the atrocities they suffered. Leaving aside the logical inconsistencies which have been pointed out over and over, you also claim that your position is more charitable to the Jews.

Your position is that the Jews would've had a reaction to their suffering that is completely unlike other oppressed groups throughout history. You are holding them to an unrealistically high standard, and claiming that since they do not meet that standard, they could not every have been in the situation in the first place. The official story holds them to a much lower, more human standard. And I have never, ever see you respond to requests to explain the difference between the Jews and any other groups save the Soviet POWs, and even then only after you took weeks to come up with a hand-wave which was proven wrong almost immediately and which you never addressed again.

LemmyCaution said:
But when it came to the Jews during WWII - ostracized and isolated, actually shoved into camps, truly threatened with death, and watching many of their number actually put to death - these tactics should not, you say over and over, have worked at all. Curious.
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Oh snap.
 
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Cyrix686 said:
Mondial, how many countries in the World don't have Holocaust denial laws?
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The point I am making is the blatant hypocrisy of countries that have laws against holocaust revisionism. The same politicians who support freedom of expression for the Muhammad cartoons are the same politicians who support the imprisonment of holocaust revisionists. Even in Britain which doesn't have a specific "holocaust denial" law 2 men were imprisoned for distributing a comic book called "Tales of the Holohoax". http://downwithjugears.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/help-heretical-two.html This is the offending comic. www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/TalesV2.pdf
 
TSR said:
For your information, this is a lie.

Would you care to actually *cite* the laws involved?

Irving didn't "question" the Holocaust, he was found to have explicitly denied it, further to his (also legally determined) effort to whitewash Hitler's part in it.

Can you think of any reason why Austrians might be sensitive to anyone trying to obliterate historical fact in that way?

Nope.

The German law states "Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism"

Nothing there about questioning either.

Can you think of any reason why Germans might be sensitive to this?

While I do not personally approve of such laws (mostly because they give deniers an excuse to whine and try to play the victim card) I understand those countries' more that average sensitivity to anyone trying to rehabilitate a political stance based in hate which nearly destroyed them.

There is not, nor should there be IMO, an absolute freedom of speech anywhere in the world.

This is why we have, for examples, laws against fraud, slander and libel.

You may be surprized to find that I would also support his "questioning".

However, he goes far beyond "questioning" and lies and distorts the historical and forensic evidence to do so, which is why he was forced to admit that "chemistry is not the science which can prove or refute any allegations about the Holocaust 'rigorously'" when backed into a corner trying to support his crap

He broke laws which a majority of Germans support while a citizen and resident of German, and which a majority of Americans (in the case of his deportation) support while he was a resident there.

Someone with the strength of their convictions would take the penalty as the cost of making the change.

Gandhi was jailed three times -- and kept working to make a positive change for his country, from within his country.

Martin Luther King was jailed, and kept working to make a positive change for his country, from within his country.

Rudolf was jailed, only after his lies caught up with him, having run away to hide in other countries like Brave Aryan Warriors always do. And what has he done to further what you would see as positive change to these laws?

Bupkus. He is every bit as impotent in his "noble crusade" to save Germany from the scars of its Nazi past as every other denier -- including you.
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What you say is simply splitting hairs. Holocaust revisionism is illegal in several European countries. If Germans and Austrians are sensitive about the past that might be understandable but why should there be laws against holocaust revisionism in France, Poland and Switzerland which never had a nazi government. You are the bearer of double standards who always criticise the national socialists for being anti democratic yet you either ignore or downplay this blatant attack on freedom of speech. You are a hypocrite of the worst stripe.
 
Robrob said:
True. Strange how the CT nuts would want to say if a single person who claimed to have been victimized turns out to be a liar, the entire historical event never happened.

Does that mean if any one single Holocaust denier turns out to be a liar their entire POV is false?

Just checking.
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A better question would be why does the media cover up for Elie "Windbag" Wiesel ? www.eliewieseltattoo.com www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesel.shtml He attends many public events and conferences - all it would take to bring him down would be for a journalist to ask some hard questions. Why is the media covering up for this obvious fraud?
 
Mondial said:
The point I am making is the blatant hypocrisy of countries that have laws against holocaust revisionism. The same politicians who support freedom of expression for the Muhammad cartoons are the same politicians who support the imprisonment of holocaust revisionists. Even in Britain which doesn't have a specific "holocaust denial" law 2 men were imprisoned for distributing a comic book called "Tales of the Holohoax". http://downwithjugears.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/help-heretical-two.html This is the offending comic. www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/TalesV2.pdf
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Blah blah blah.

Can you point to the sentence where you answered the question?
How many countries dont have ant-denial laws?

New question: what offence were the two comic producers charged with? Not "what crime does this blogger claim", what was the actual offence, charged in which court, on what date?
 
Mondial said:
What you say is simply splitting hairs. Holocaust revisionism is illegal in several European countries. If Germans and Austrians are sensitive about the past that might be understandable but why should there be laws against holocaust revisionism in France, Poland and Switzerland which never had a nazi government. You are the bearer of double standards who always criticise the national socialists for being anti democratic yet you either ignore or downplay this blatant attack on freedom of speech. You are a hypocrite of the worst stripe.
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So let me get this right. You are calling somebody, not just a hypocrite, but one of the worst stripe, on shaky ground.

If TSR complained about the LACK OF FREE SPEECH under Nazi rule then declared no other nation should be allowed free speech you may have almost grasped something that would have been mistaken for a point if we gave you the benefit of the doubt.

If TSR had complained about Nazi rule restricting freedom of speech to a set level, then liked other countries implementing the same restrictions on the same topics with the same powers, that would be hypocritical. And more likely because no nation has ever, or could ever have total freedom of unrestricted expression. Slander,libel, harrassment, etc are all controlled by law. Funny that. Yet the countries you mention dont have concentration camps full of those dictators dont like. So how could it be hypocricy to compare the two?

If TSR had complained about the LACK OF DEMOCRACY, then discussed laws that were not produced by democratically elected governments in accordance to the stated aims and values of the elected powers. You might have a point, but alas you list only democracies in your rant, and offer no evidence these laws were not instituted through a democratic process.
 
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