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Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

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Then he shouldn't have said "Jesus certainly existed" on page 173 of his new book "Did Jesus Exist".
Given his inability to substantiate this claim, no he shouldn't.
Perhaps you should read some Doherty?

On which page does he say that Jesus was certainly divine?
:)
So then you must believe these people died for Bart Ehrman's Jesus and not the resurrected Jesus of theologians and preachers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs
Irrelevant. Do Islamic martyrs show Allah exists?

Can we now safely assume that the Ehrman Angle is dead?
No DOC will continue to quote mine him in his desperate attempt to justify his beliefs. Just look at the number of times he quote mines Jefferson and Ramsay.
 
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No DOC will continue to quote mine him in his desperate attempt to justify his beliefs. Just look at the number of times he quote mines Jefferson and Ramsay.

Well, considering he's quote mining without actually owning the book (skimmed 30% or something?) I suppose this could take a while if he ever actually buys it.
 
... I have presented sites like the one below to give rational reasons to believe it happened.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
Your linked source Evidence for the Resurrection by Josh McDowell, is a heap of infantile absurdities. It gives few sources or citations, just silly non-sequitur statements. Like this:
Gamaliel, who was a member of the Jewish high court, the Sanhedrin, put forth the suggestion that the rise of the Christian movement was God's doing; he could not have done that if the tomb were still occupied, or if the Sanhedrin knew the whereabouts of Christ's body.
What if Gamaliel had never heard any story about an empty tomb, and had no cause even to think about such a thing? This is a Christian story. Before the Christians invented it and spread it, the only people who could have known about it, had it happened, were the Jews, Jesus' people; and the Jews were never convinced by the Jesus story. So the only possible witnesses say no.

Now, any honest author telling us that Gamaliel believed the Christian movement was God's doing, would quote Gamalel's words. Your link doesn't so I will. Acts 5:
30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross ... 33 When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law,who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
What do these words mean? Leave preachers alone. Obviously, if their predictions come true, they're from God. If not, not. Theudas had made promises; they failed. So did those of Judas of Galilee. If Jesus' words fail, he's not from God either.

Jesus promised the speedy arrival of God's Kingdom. It's not here. He fails the Gamaliel test.

Anyway, Gamaliel couldn't have uttered these words as related in Acts. As pointed out in wiki
The difficulty is that the rising of Theudas is here given as before that of Judas of Galilee, which is itself dated to the time of the taxation (c. 6-7 AD). Josephus, on the other hand, says that Theudas was 45 or 46, which is after Gamaliel is speaking, and long after Judas the Galilean.
Recent commentators incline to the view that the author of Acts used Josephus as a source, and misread the Josephan passage. In any event, he got it wrong.

How can you simply accept these ridiculous and puerile apologetics, designed for the most uneducated and unquestioning believers, and offer them to informed readers?
 
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So you believe that the 9/11 terrorists were martyred and are now enjoying their 72 virgins?


Non sequitur


No wonder you commit this fallacy so often yourself. You clearly have no idea what it means.

Why is it valid to claim that Christian martyrs give validity to Christianity but Muslim martyrs don't give validity to Islam?
 
Let me see if I have this right:

DOC brings up Bart Ehrman's latest book, in which Ehrman attempts to prove the existence of a historical person behind the Jesus narrative, thinking that because skeptics like Ehrman's other books, we'll have to agree with this one.

Everyone else points out that this book, unlike Ehrman's other books, is a load of poorly-researched and fallacy-ridden hogwash.
Who is everyone, as far as I know only 2 or 3 people in this thread have read at least 30% of the book.

DOC spends 3 pages trying to understand why skeptics don't accept Ehrman's authority on the issue.


Has anyone explained that we don't evaluate arguments based on who made them, but only on the merits of the arguments themselves?
Have you read the book or just the opinions of some skeptics online (as seems to be the case with most people in here).
 
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No wonder you commit this fallacy so often yourself. You clearly have no idea what it means.

Why is it valid to claim that Christian martyrs give validity to Christianity but Muslim martyrs don't give validity to Islam?

Please answer this, Doc
 
Who is everyone, as far as I know only 2 or 3 people in this thread have read at least 30% of the book.

Have you read the book or just the opinions of some skeptics online (as seems to be the case with most people in here).

I haven't read the book but I have read the reviews online. The book does not support your position, neither does the author's track record. You haven't read the book either.
 
Let me see if I have this right:

DOC brings up Bart Ehrman's latest book, in which Ehrman attempts to prove the existence of a historical person behind the Jesus narrative, thinking that because skeptics like Ehrman's other books, we'll have to agree with this one.

Everyone else points out that this book, unlike Ehrman's other books, is a load of poorly-researched and fallacy-ridden hogwash.


Who is everyone, as far as I know only 2 or 3 people in this thread have read at least 30% of the book.


Everyone is everyone in the thread that isn't you.

There is no requirement for us all to have read the book to know that X's description is accurate. Even without the wealth of online reviews of the work and critiques by those among us who have the book, your own contributions put the matter beyond doubt.

It's drivel.


DOC spends 3 pages trying to understand why skeptics don't accept Ehrman's authority on the issue.


Has anyone explained that we don't evaluate arguments based on who made them, but only on the merits of the arguments themselves?


Have you read the book or just the opinions of some skeptics online (as seems to be the case with most people in here).


Have you?


By the way, DOC, why did you choose to not respond to this part of X's post?


In regard to bible translations, one should keep in mind that most translations have an agenda. And the translation effort is therefore skewed in favour of that agenda. Which sometimes changes words and meanings substantially. ddt's analysis of the original Greek is far, far more valuable than DOC's repetitions of some translation or another saying something different. Remember: the translators had an agenda. So does ddt, but unlike the translators, ddt's agenda in this thread has only been to find the most accurate meaning of the original Greek text. Learn Greek, DOC. The links have been provided. Or you can keep showing your ignorance on that subject.


Weasel got your tongue?
 
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DOC said:
Have you read the book or just the opinions of some skeptics online (as seems to be the case with most people in here).
Far as I'm concerned, I don't need to read either. If you're offering the best defense of the book, I can safely ignore it--your best defense is pretty pathetic, after all.

X said:
And the translation effort is therefore skewed in favour of that agenda.
In high school I took French. Part of learning the language was translating French texts into English. For some reason, my versions were always more pessimistic, depressing, and generally sad than anyone else's (Le Pettit Prince was....yeah....). No clue why it is--that's just how I translate French.

I mention this because it's proof that, in at least some instances, the translation can be extremely skewed without the translator even being aware of the reasons why. They can have an agenda without realizing it, or make a perfectly defensible translation that's none the less biased in their favor without conscious intent. That's why any translated work will include the author and translator--different translations will be different.
 
That's why any translated work will include the author and translator--different translations will be different.


What value would you place on this effort?


noun
παραγωγή production, manufacture, output, generation, derivation, procreation

γενεά generation, race

γέννηση birth, generation, nativity, procreation, nascency, progenitur

http://translate.google.com/?tl=el&q=undefined#auto|el|generation


That's DOC, attempting to translate the original Koine Greek text of the Bible by entering English words from the NIV into Google translate, obtaining the modern greek word and using Google's definitions of that word to try and support his argument.

How can you argue with scholarship like that?
 
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Well, another anecdote springs to mind. My senior year the French final was to present a 10 minute play, entirely in French, to the class. One of the people I was partnered with had somehow gotten the same idea as DOC--translating each individual word. After about ten minutes of this I gave him two options: go sit in a corner and let the big kids work, or I'd stab him. Fortunately for the both of us he chose to sit in the corner.

I think that just about covers my views of the value of a word-by-word translation of anything. :D
 
Seem to agree with you on everything above, so am just replying to this. Why is Matthew's dating better? It isn't to any significant degree, but the fact that Luke's account seems to place it during Herod's rein makes me think that both authors reckon that was about the time he was born. Even with the wildly divergent accounts, they both seem to think that Herod was around at the time.
Of course, this isn't "proof". It's not even a convincing argument, but Jesus had to be born at some time, and why suppose he was born 2AD and both authors somehow managed to get every detail wrong, rather suppose he was born 5BC and they got the basic timescale correct?

Do you mean in reality or for the purposes of the story?
 
DOC, your bizarre fixation of using Ehrman as an authority while simultaneously cherry picking his arguments is an interesting case study as to why appeals to authority and cherry picking are logical fallacies.
 
DOC,

I've suggested this before, but in the interest of fairness to your cause I'll repeat it: you need to seriously revise your entire approach to defending Christianity, because your threads are the worse apologist arguments I have ever seen. Your arguments have only illustrated the weaknesses in your position, and you have unconvinced more people of the divinity of Jesus than most atheist scholars. You have also underscored the inherent dishonesty and contractions of many of the apologist points of view.

Your negative impact on Christian belief has been documented in Forum polls. I am an atheist, but by following your threads I have acquired even stronger documentation for my position that I have used to support my side in debates with theists.

If I still believed that you are only an overly enthusiastic supporter of Christianity, as I once thought you were, I would never hurt your feelings by telling you this. But I've come to believe that you have intentionally taken on a misguided, and misleading strategy to promote you views. So, just to let you know- I thank you. If knowing this you wish to continue in this way, that's fine, and it will absolve me of the feelings of guilty pleasure I currently have when I tune into your posts.
 
DOC,

I've suggested this before, but in the interest of fairness to your cause I'll repeat it: you need to seriously revise your entire approach to defending Christianity, because your threads are the worse apologist arguments I have ever seen. Your arguments have only illustrated the weaknesses in your position, and you have unconvinced more people of the divinity of Jesus than most atheist scholars. You have also underscored the inherent dishonesty and contractions of many of the apologist points of view.

Your negative impact on Christian belief has been documented in Forum polls. I am an atheist, but by following your threads I have acquired even stronger documentation for my position that I have used to support my side in debates with theists.

If I still believed that you are only an overly enthusiastic supporter of Christianity, as I once thought you were, I would never hurt your feelings by telling you this. But I've come to believe that you have intentionally taken on a misguided, and misleading strategy to promote you views. So, just to let you know- I thank you. If knowing this you wish to continue in this way, that's fine, and it will absolve me of the feelings of guilty pleasure I currently have when I tune into your posts.

As I have been saying for nearly 5 years, my threads are not about me. Forget me, and just talk about the facts I present, or the occasional inference I make. If you don't like what I present or the way I do it then you should stay out of the thread. But I know that probably won't happen with many people.

So I guess it's now onto the next DOC this, DOC that, post---many times without an example or explanation. Do all these no new information attack posts waste people's time who are serious about learning new information; sure it does, but that's the nature of the net I guess.
 
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As I have been saying for nearly 5 years, my threads are not about me.


Giordano's post isn't about you. It's about the garbage that you post and the effect it has not just on people's understanding of the weird and illogical theology that you pursue but on their perception of everyone belonging to the faith that you falsely claim to represent.


Forget me, and just talk about the facts I present . . .


I'm fairly sure that if you ever present a fact the sheer novelty of it will be the talk of the town for weeks.


. . . . or the occasional inference I make.


You have no idea of the difference between inference and implication, do you, DOC?

And even less idea, I would surmise, about how uproariously funny it is that somone with such abysmally poor English skills would presume to hold forth on the subtleties of ancient Greek.


If you don't like what I present or the way I do it then you should stay out of the thread.


Nobody has said anything about disliking the drivel that you post. Au contraire, as Giordano has just said and as many others among us have previously pointed out, the service you do for atheism with your constant stream of utter dreck is invaluable and much appreciated. An army of sceptics with malice in their black little hearts couldn't debunk a claim of New Testament truthiness as effectively as you have in this thread.


But I know that probably won't happen with many people.


Since you display no apparent knowledge of what people think, despite them posting it for you, what would you say your chances are of being able to predict what they'll do on account of those thoughts?


Hint: It's less than zero.


So I guess it's now onto the next DOC this, DOC that, post---many times without an example or explanation.


You only actually have about a dozen different thoughts fallacies that you keep recycling over and over again. There is no requirement for people to do likewise and post the same examples and explanations of your wrongevity when all you need to do is look back at what was said to you the first time you posted it, all those years ago.


Do all these no new information attack posts waste people's time who are serious about learning new information; sure it does . . .


Notice anything, Mr Serious Learner?


. . . but that's the nature of the net I guess.


Keep on guessing, DOC.


BrokenClock.jpg
 
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