Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

David, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you. If you want to go over the evidence, we will. Let's start with the APC, that was the basis of my statement and would make an excellent model for helping determine whether she made a case 'far past her evidence' like I said. After all, that's supposed to be an example of the case they're going to make, and since this is Florida we now have access to much of the evidence and can evaluate how well the evidence supports her case, and (some of us!) can also gain some...insight...regarding just how she formulates her contentions.

I'll start with a positive. The last two paragraphs preceding the disclaimer and naming the charge are well-formulated. In a concise fashion all the information one could reasonably expect is there, and has since been supported by the additional evidence available to us. It is necessary to this charge that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin. We have an admission by GZ, evidence he had a gun on him, evidence the gun was fired, and then evidence Trayvon Martin died of a gunshot wound. Evaluating the raw evidence since disclosed has corroborated that section of the APC, as has additional evidence available through other sources. George Zimmerman has not withdrawn his admission, the physical evidence available is consistent with their claims.

The rest of the APC doesn't live up to that standard, though I'll be happy to hear your arguments on the subject. More than Trayvon being shot by George Zimmerman is required to support the murder two charge, and that part is deficient. So much so that it's obvious to a casual observer with even a passing knowledge of the subject, anyone telling you different is lying (or 'spinning'--pure pig ignorance is also a possibility!) to you, and I'll be happy to demonstrate why, I don't need to rely on authorities (though there are many who'd corroborate that of course) I can show you just why. It may take a hundred pages, but we'll get there. The actual evidence doesn't support the rest of the contentions, and the contentions themselves aren't necessarily indicative of murder.

Just start with a paragraph and see if it supports one of the necessary contentions being made, and if the totality of the evidence available to us (now) suggests that it is an accurate representation of the facts and evidence in the case. I think if you go through this you'll find out just why I am as confident of my position as I am, as if you think on it this will pretty much demonstrate why someone might be able to say 'a charge far past the evidence.'

Or you can blow me off with a snarky comment. Your call.

So anyone who believes the actual legal facts over your opinions, is lying or pig headed ignorant, because you don't need authories, you could just show them, but it would take over 100 pages to prove them wrong?

Did I get that right?

Because I'd hate to misunderstand you.

 

[This is The End]

Can anyone nail this down?

Could someone clarify the time-line on the document dump that has to happen within 15 days.

Would that make it the day of, or the day before, the next bond hearing that is on the 29th?

 

[Cylinder]

Can anyone nail this down?

Oririnal order dated 6-12, so 6-27 at the latest.

 

[Cylinder]

MOM filed a pleading notifying the court of his witnesses in the upcoming bond hearing, Shelley Glenn and Micheal Smith. They are the original bond agents for All Star Majic Bail Bonds.

 

[Unabogie]

MOM filed a pleading notifying the court of his witnesses in the upcoming bond hearing, Shelley Glenn and Micheal Smith. They are the original bond agents for All Star Majic Bail Bonds.

That's just weird. Any idea on what the bailbonds people could say in his defense?

 

[GWCarver]

That's just weird. Any idea on what the bailbonds people could say in his defense?

Jeralyn's take on it:

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/14/195655/700

 

[This is The End]

Oririnal order dated 6-12, so 6-27 at the latest.

OK so Wed. will be the evidence dump and Fri. the bond hearing.

 

[Unabogie]

Jeralyn's take on it:

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/14/195655/700

Shorter Jeralyn: he lied to the bailbonds people too?

First of all, they used the money to pay off their personal bills. Like credit cards and Sam's Club stuff! So they want the court to believe that they thought the money could go for personal bills but not bail? From the legal defense fund?

Not credible.

But second, they are on tape! They clearly discussed how to use the money for bond.

They discussed having $100 grand and "just paying the $15" if it went over that amount. They clearly knew the money could be used for this purpose. That they kept the ruse going with other people besides the court just means they are bigger liars than we thought.

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]GZ: If the bond is $50, pay the 15. If it's more than 15, just pay 15% to the bondsman. SZ: You want me to pay $100?
GZ: Hell no.
SZ: All right just think about it.
GZ: I will.
SZ: That's what it's for. - Source
[/FONT]

 

[applecorped]

Free Mumia, er I mean George.

 

[crimresearch]

MOM filed a pleading notifying the court of his witnesses in the upcoming bond hearing, Shelley Glenn and Micheal Smith. They are the original bond agents for All Star Majic Bail Bonds.

Majic Bail bonds... Because if you beat this rap, it's Majic.

 

[Noztradamus]

Free Mumia, er I mean George.

Get out of my mind! I've been thinking for a month that now the wingnuts have a "Da Man is railroading one of ourn own" poster boy to match the moonbats.

 

[GWCarver]

Shorter Jeralyn: he lied to the bailbonds people too?

First of all, they used the money to pay off their personal bills. Like credit cards and Sam's Club stuff! So they want the court to believe that they thought the money could go for personal bills but not bail? From the legal defense fund?

Not credible.

But second, they are on tape! They clearly discussed how to use the money for bond.

They discussed having $100 grand and "just paying the $15" if it went over that amount. They clearly knew the money could be used for this purpose. That they kept the ruse going with other people besides the court just means they are bigger liars than we thought.

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]GZ: If the bond is $50, pay the 15. If it's more than 15, just pay 15% to the bondsman. SZ: You want me to pay $100?
GZ: Hell no.
SZ: All right just think about it.
GZ: I will.
SZ: That's what it's for. - Source
[/FONT]

He ended up paying 5 dollars and still owes the bondsman 10 dollars. I guess we will have to hear the bond agents' testimony to see what they were told. A good guess, since O'Mara is calling them to testify, is that their testimony will help Zimmerman.

ETA - Jeralyn has never had any real doubt Zimmerman will get bail again. She's less certain of the amount.

 

[Mumbles]

Have you ever seen someone pull to the side of the road to take a call on a cell phone? Do you freak out and run, even if they're looking at you which might simply be because you're moving in their field of vision?

If they've clearly pulled over in order to stare at me...well, I wouldn't run, but I'd be ready for a fight. And if that person then gets out and starts tailing me, he'll face a *very* angry Mumbles telling him in no uncertain terms to back off or get beaten.

Zimmerman said he did so because he thought Trayvon was acting suspiciously, walking strangely and eying the houses in the neighborhood. Then when TM noticed him he took off running, which could easily be interpreted as somewhat suspicious. That TM had just gone to the store for 'tea and skittles' is rather dubious considering that according to the timestamps he must have taken 45 minutes to walk roughly a thousand yards.

Frankly, this makes Zimmerman look like an idiot. His only actual description of what martin was doing was "walking around, looking about", "looking at houses". That's a person walking down the street, period. If Martin was stumbling (in which case, how did he suddenly become an MMA Champion who can meld into shadows?), or peeping into windows, as I've already said, then Zimmerman should have said that in his phone call. He didn't.

And that's the entire point. Zimmerman had no *actual* reason to suspect Martin of anything at all. And once he had convinced himself, *anything* Martin did would be seen as "suspicious", since Zimmerman had already convinced himself that martin was some sort of villain. And we see that in his 911 call, where Zimmerman finds Martin "suspicious" because he's walking or running, looking at him or at houses, moving towards or away from him, or having his hand in his waistband.

As for the claim that martin went to the store to buy some snacks, at this point, we really have nothing at all to contradict it, and strong evidence that it's true. How long he took to walk is pretty irrelevant.

This ended with TM administering a beating to GZ, unwilling to budge even when a bystander told him he was calling police with wounds all over GZ's face and head. The evidence suggests that TM was exactly the sort one might want to call police on, his subsequent running and eventually beating of George Zimmerman hardly justified by George pulling over to use the phone and then running after him and stopping not long afterward.

Again, no. I find Martin's suspicion of Zimmerman to be completely reasonable. And stop saying that Zimmerman "pulled over to use the phone", since it's clear that he pulled over to watch Martin. And we're assuming that Martin started the fight, which makes no sense, given that Martin was apparently not interested in any sort of confrontation, while Zimmerman was clearly angry at him.

Think about it this way: had the police gotten there moments earlier before the shot, just what do you think would have been the outcome of this event? Probably jail time for Trayvon, and it would simply be a lesson for GZ that if you call the police on someone you think dangerous it would be best to let them handle it.

Well, Trayvon was a 17 year old black kid, and Martin was Mr. Neighborhood Watch. I'm sure that Martin would end up in legal trouble. I'm not convinced that this would be fair.

 

[GWCarver]

Uh, no. I mean, I suppose it's possible, but that's just about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

OK, forget about the commentary, and just concentrate on the interview. Try to picture, if you will, Bernie putting DeeDee on the stand knowing as soon as the prosecution rests, O'Mara will be questioning him under oath not only about this interview, but the original interview(s), and the testimony she has just given. Every question, all of the changes, how DeeDee, who had originally heard a "rustling sound" - a word not likely to be in her vocabulary - turned into her hearing a "bump" , which then changed into her hearing "something hit someone" 30 seconds later (after Bernie supplied that description himself) etc. He could be up there a long time, and his credibility with the jury could be severely damaged.

So, I think if DeeDee is going to testify, Bernie won't be part of the prosecution team. I don't think Corey can risk it.

ETA - I wonder if Corey had de la Rionda do this interview because Crump said he didn't trust the Sanford PD. As it turns out they were there, but apparently just as observers.

 

[Unabogie]

OK, forget about the commentary, and just concentrate on the interview. Try to picture, if you will, Bernie putting DeeDee on the stand knowing as soon as the prosecution rests, O'Mara will be questioning him under oath not only about this interview, but the original interview(s), and the testimony she has just given. Every question, all of the changes, how DeeDee, who had originally heard a "rustling sound" - a word not likely to be in her vocabulary - turned into her hearing a "bump" , which then changed into her hearing "something hit someone" 30 seconds later (after Bernie supplied that description himself) etc. He could be up there a long time, and his credibility with the jury could be severely damaged.

So, I think if DeeDee is going to testify, Bernie won't be part of the prosecution team. I don't think Corey can risk it.

ETA - I wonder if Corey had de la Rionda do this interview because Crump said he didn't trust the Sanford PD. As it turns out they were there, but apparently just as observers.

Sorry. George's lawyers will not be calling the DA as a witness. That's for the movies.

 

[Gazpacho]

OK, so while I continue to think GZ is an idiot, and that his public credibility has taken a hit over this, it was actually GZ's team which notified the court. If you think about it, an argument could actually be made that shows integrity

I think there might be situations where a lawyer who catches his client lying to the court has a legal and ethical duty to bring it to the court's attention, on his own initiative.

 

[GWCarver]

Sorry. George's lawyers will not be calling the DA as a witness. That's for the movies.

He made himself a potential witness when he did the interview, but only if DeeDee is on the witness list. Look at this is a movie in which the State Attorney, for whatever reason, used an ASA instead of an investigator to do an interview. You wouldn't be surprised at all if Gilbreath was called for the same exact reason as de la Rionda would be called.

I can't think of any downside to O'Mara putting him on the stand. It's a win, win - discredit DeeDee and discredit Bernie. Even if he isn't on the prosecution team in court, I think he still will be called to testify about the interview, if she is called.

 

[Unabogie]

He made himself a potential witness when he did the interview, but only if DeeDee is on the witness list. Look at this is a movie in which the State Attorney, for whatever reason, used an ASA instead of an investigator to do an interview. You wouldn't be surprised at all if Gilbreath was called for the same exact reason as de la Rionda would be called.

I can't think of any downside to O'Mara putting him on the stand. It's a win, win - discredit DeeDee and discredit Bernie. Even if he isn't on the prosecution team in court, I think he still will be called to testify about the interview, if she is called.

If George doesn't plea, she will take the stand and Bernie will not. Book it.

 

[Noztradamus]

Again, no. I find Martin's suspicion of Zimmerman to be completely reasonable. And stop saying that Zimmerman "pulled over to use the phone", since it's clear that he pulled over to watch Martin. And we're assuming that Martin started the fight, which makes no sense, given that Martin was apparently not interested in any sort of confrontation, while Zimmerman was clearly angry at him.

Quote:
Think about it this way: had the police gotten there moments earlier before the shot, just what do you think would have been the outcome of this event? Probably jail time for Trayvon, and it would simply be a lesson for GZ that if you call the police on someone you think dangerous it would be best to let them handle it.

Well, Trayvon was a 17 year old black kid, and Martin was Mr. Neighborhood Watch. I'm sure that Martin would end up in legal trouble. I'm not convinced that this would be fair.

"This dude pulled his truck over to stare at me, chased me, told me I was in trouble because I was in the wrong 'hood, and drew a gun when I tried to get away"

Maybe the cops would still clear George and Trayvon would be in legal trouble with that story. And given that Dee Dee's version broadly supports that and George's response of "No I was reaching for my cell phone, how my gun got into my hand is a complete mystery", maybe not.

One thing certain: the 'net would still be arguing.

 

[Dancing David]

I think there might be situations where a lawyer who catches his client lying to the court has a legal and ethical duty to bring it to the court's attention, on his own initiative.

That would really change a lot of our legal system. How about lawyers who lie on behalf of their clients.