Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[GWCarver]

Doesn't it ever get old dragging stuff over from the tree house, most of it to slam the dead teen? Talkleft doesn't help either cuz JM has never met a defendant she didn't love. Side note: if you listened to her during the ramsay case, the parents weren't even in the house that night!!! ok, a little hyperbole there, but not much.

I understand the way you feel. I pray every night the Huffington Post, the New York Times, and the Memphis Commercial Appeal will be gone when I wake up, only to find them still there. But, I'll still use them as sources if necessary, sometimes on purpose, if hundreds of papers are all carrying the same wire article.

 

[GWCarver]

And the physical evidence is...

I did just say I was talking about two mysteries.

 

[GWCarver]

So Mr. Martin and Ms. Green weren't really at dinner in Orlando ?

I didn't say they weren't at dinner or even imply it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I didn't say they weren't at dinner or even imply it.

If Brandy says she saw him on the porch, that does imply that she was there to see him, and not in Orlando, doesn't it ? What did I miss ?

 

[Cylinder]

The crime scene photos begin at 21:42 with photos of the house fronts on Twin Tree Lane. Evidence marker #1 is placed next to the keys in the closeup sequence between 21:56:45 and 21:57:01 just as I has remembered.

You have to factor in that CST Smaith was interupted in the act of photographing object markers by the ME who had her (?) take photos of the body. After the ME was done with the in situ examination, she completed documenting the object markers.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Of all the officers that noticed the Honda keys, how many of them noted the little beacon of a flashlight drawing their attention? I think the photographer used her photographs to reconstruct her memory and saw the artifacts that I pointed out that could be mistaken for showing the light was on. A close examination of the photos show no evidence of internal illumination from either flashlight.

How about the fact that Officer D. Smith had the sole focus of cataloging and photographing the evidence ?
The other officers all were focused on additional tasks, as well as noting what items were at the crime scene. As has been pointed out, they officers on the scene couldn't agree on TMs pants in thier reports.
As for the flashlight, you can't see the lens in the photo, I don't know how you think you can reasonably determine it was not on.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't find it difficult to believe that the initial officers on the scene believed GZ to be on foot. Despite the NEN operator knowing, I can imagine he may have told the officer to call GZ and GZ would meet him because he was on foot, or similar.

Beyond the initial assumption though, I find it hard to believe they would not have the information required to determine GZ initially was in his truck, rather quickly. Certainly before GZ called his wife to bring him clothes, which is when he must have told her to move the truck (speculation).

I thought we already went through this discussion, and I recall some legal arguments that they would not have been able to seize the truck.

Aside from noting where the truck was, which does not require seizing it, what specifically is so important about the truck ?

Well the most obvious one is comparing the location of the truck to George's story. We now know that Shellie Zimmerman is perfectly willing to conspire and lie with her husband (there goes that credibility thing again). Perhaps the truck wasn't where he said it was. Perhaps he swung it around and ran through the buildings from the opposite side that he claimed? Who knows. She moved it, so now we're just left with his word on locations.

Second, he sounds intoxicated on the tapes. Since we know they never ran a tox screen or a breath test, George may have had an open container in his car. Maybe he was drinking Watermelon Lean? I hear it's really popular down there (I kid).

Third, he claimed he was only out on an errand. Maybe he claimed he was just coming back from store X (instead of circling the neighborhood) in order to make the encounter sound more random than it was, but he knew he didn't have any bags from store X. So he and his wife tried to cover that up.

Maybe he had police scanners in there which would show him to be the wannabe cop some people speculated he was?

In any case, Shellie moved the car, police never got a chance to search it, so we'll never know.

 

[Unabogie]

They had no power to impound (or even search) Zimmerman's vehicle. They were prohibited from it.

This seems off to me. Police search people's cars all the time under flimsy circumstances. Often times, if they really don't have the legal right to search, they would have just asked him:

"Sir, you said you drove here. Where's your truck?"

"Right there".

"Sir, do you mind if I take a look inside? Are these your keys?"

Then you've waived whatever right you had to refuse the search. There's no indication that George refused a search of the vehicle. But police could have asked.

 

[Dan O.]

You have to factor in that CST Smaith was interupted in the act of photographing object markers by the ME who had her (?) take photos of the body. After the ME was done with the in situ examination, she completed documenting the object markers.

That comes later. Between the first aid kit with marker #4 at 21:59:47 and the group photo of markers #5, #6 and #7 at 23:34:06, there are gaps in the photographic record and the body is removed.

 

[GWCarver]

If Brandy says she saw him on the porch, that does imply that she was there to see him, and not in Orlando, doesn't it ? What did I miss ?

I don't recall her saying she saw him on the porch. She pointed at the porch and said something like, "he was right there, sitting on the porch". Now, even though it is a mystery to date, I'm leaning towards the theory someone told her that, probably her son.

 

[Cylinder]

Perhaps the truck wasn't where he said it was. Perhaps he swung it around and ran through the buildings from the opposite side that he claimed? Who knows. She moved it, so now we're just left with his word on locations.

The police documented the locations of vehicles at the scene and the time of the initial investigation. We haven't seen any of the evidence maps yet.

 

[Dan O.]

How about the fact that Officer D. Smith had the sole focus of cataloging and photographing the evidence ?
The other officers all were focused on additional tasks, as well as noting what items were at the crime scene. As has been pointed out, they officers on the scene couldn't agree on TMs pants in thier reports.
As for the flashlight, you can't see the lens in the photo, I don't know how you think you can reasonably determine it was not on.

Where is the photograph that documents that the light was on? The photo from the Tee is looking straight into that flashlight. It is not on.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

My question was:

Aside from noting where the truck was, which does not require seizing it, what specifically is so important about the truck ?

Well the most obvious one is comparing the location of the truck to George's story. We now know that Shellie Zimmerman is perfectly willing to conspire and lie with her husband (there goes that credibility thing again). Perhaps the truck wasn't where he said it was. Perhaps he swung it around and ran through the buildings from the opposite side that he claimed? Who knows. She moved it, so now we're just left with his word on locations.

It would truly amaze me if GZ and SZ were the only two people alive that know exactly where the truck was. That there are no other witnesses or photographs, of video evidence from the multitude of people and reports that were there.

Second, he sounds intoxicated on the tapes. Since we know they never ran a tox screen or a breath test, George may have had an open container in his car. Maybe he was drinking Watermelon Lean? I hear it's really popular down there (I kid).

Open containers in the truck is a red herring. He could have just as easily chugged a case of beer before he got in the truck too.If he spent hours in the police station and none of the LEOs who interviewed him and interacted with him thought he was drunk or somehow impaired enough to test, that sounds good enough reason for me to believe he wasn't.

Third, he claimed he was only out on an errand. Maybe he claimed he was just coming back from store X (instead of circling the neighborhood) in order to make the encounter sound more random than it was, but he knew he didn't have any bags from store X. So he and his wife tried to cover that up.

I believe he claimed he was on his way to Target. Not back. So unless it turns out to be different, this is irrelevant.

Maybe he had police scanners in there which would show him to be the wannabe cop some people speculated he was?

How is that relevant ? Was TM being discussed on a police scanner prior to the shooting ?

In any case, Shellie moved the car, police never got a chance to search it, so we'll never know.

No, we won't , but I still don't have a clue what they would find that would be relevant.

 

[Rare Truth]

The police documented the locations of vehicles at the scene and the time of the initial investigation. We haven't seen any of the evidence maps yet.

I don't believe we know that to be true.

Your quote from the report about running the tags on the vehicle was to gather more information from potential witnesses, and to determine if the teenager may have been driving one of them. At that point he was an unknown to the neighborhood John Doe.

I read nothing in the report about documenting "the locations of vehicles."

Maybe you can point that out, if you have it.

 

[Unabogie]

The police documented the locations of vehicles at the scene and the time of the initial investigation. We haven't seen any of the evidence maps yet.

But the location was based on what? Is there a photo of the truck? Or was that based on his word?

Second, there are those other items I mentioned that could have been a reason why she moved the truck before it could be searched. I was just trying to speculate as to what could have been gleaned from searching the truck and preventing his wife from tampering with it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Where is the photograph that documents that the light was on? The photo from the Tee is looking straight into that flashlight. It is not on.

If you wanted to provide a link to the photo you want to discuss it would make things easier.

 

[GWCarver]

Well the most obvious one is comparing the location of the truck to George's story. We now know that Shellie Zimmerman is perfectly willing to conspire and lie with her husband (there goes that credibility thing again). Perhaps the truck wasn't where he said it was. Perhaps he swung it around and ran through the buildings from the opposite side that he claimed? Who knows. She moved it, so now we're just left with his word on locations.

Second, he sounds intoxicated on the tapes. Since we know they never ran a tox screen or a breath test, George may have had an open container in his car. Maybe he was drinking Watermelon Lean? I hear it's really popular down there (I kid).

Third, he claimed he was only out on an errand. Maybe he claimed he was just coming back from store X (instead of circling the neighborhood) in order to make the encounter sound more random than it was, but he knew he didn't have any bags from store X. So he and his wife tried to cover that up.

Maybe he had police scanners in there which would show him to be the wannabe cop some people speculated he was?

In any case, Shellie moved the car, police never got a chance to search it, so we'll never know.

This would be my nominee for worst post of the thread. But, I did hold my nose and wade through it, and would like to ask for a citation for this statement:

We now know that Shellie Zimmerman is perfectly willing to conspire and lie with her husband (there goes that credibility thing again)

 

[Rare Truth]

This seems off to me. Police search people's cars all the time under flimsy circumstances. Often times, if they really don't have the legal right to search, they would have just asked him:

"Sir, you said you drove here. Where's your truck?"

"Right there".

"Sir, do you mind if I take a look inside? Are these your keys?"

Then you've waived whatever right you had to refuse the search. There's no indication that George refused a search of the vehicle. But police could have asked.

exactly.

I don't think there was any indication GZ tried to 'hide' that he was in the car prior, and the vehicle WAS evidence, it just didn't come up until hours later, when was being held for questioning. I don't think police did anything more than assume he was on foot - as he lived there. There was no conspiracy.

There WAS sloppy police procedures, and many, many, many detectives and experts have weighed in on the *************** that accompanied that investigation by the SPD.

 

[Unabogie]

It would truly amaze me if GZ and SZ were the only two people alive that know exactly where the truck was. That there are no other witnesses or photographs, of video evidence from the multitude of people and reports that were there.

There's lots about this case that amazes me.

Open containers in the truck is a red herring. He could have just as easily chugged a case of beer before he got in the truck too.If he spent hours in the police station and none of the LEOs who interviewed him and interacted with him thought he was drunk or somehow impaired enough to test, that sounds good enough reason for me to believe he wasn't.

But since they didn't test him, you are just pulling that out of your hat. Was he taking prescription drugs? Other drugs like meth or cocaine? We don't know. He wasn't tested and Shellie moved the truck.

I believe he claimed he was on his way to Target. Not back. So unless it turns out to be different, this is irrelevant.

Thanks.

How is that relevant ? Was TM being discussed on a police scanner prior to the shooting ?

It would show an MO. We can all recognize the wannabe hero if he's all decked out in gear no ordinary person would have. We don't know. Shellie moved the truck.

No, we won't , but I still don't have a clue what they would find that would be relevant.

That clue could have been obtained by simply looking. I find it hard to believe vehicles aren't searched after gang shootings.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't recall her saying she saw him on the porch. She pointed at the porch and said something like, "he was right there, sitting on the porch". Now, even though it is a mystery to date, I'm leaning towards the theory someone told her that, probably her son.

OK, I agree the quote does include "I saw him there" and I misinterpreted your point.

Now, if you think it's because Chad saw him and told her, I still think that's ridiculous. It seemed clear that she was distraught and just referencing the last time she had seen him, probably before she and Mr. Martin went to dinner, he was just sitting on the porch.