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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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No, the result of Robert's calculation is precisely corpses per cubic meter. The reason you got this wrong is that you misunderstood the unit of measurement in the denominator of Robert's (and Mattogno's) calculation.

The numerator of Robert's calculation is density, kg/m^3. The denominator in Robert's calculation--the number you and Dogzilla tried to debate using photos of individuals--is kg/corpse. (Robert left the "/corpse" part unstated, probably because it's obvious.)

The result of his calculation, then, is

(kg/m^3)/(kg/corpse) = corpse/m^3

or, in English, corpses per cubic meter.

Another complete nonsense...

Let's transform "corpse" in x:

z = (1Kg / 1m^3) / (1Kg / 1x)

z = x * (Kg) * (1/Kg) * (1/m^3)

z = x * (Kg) * (Kg^-1) * (m^-3)

In mathematics, that means x multiplied by 1 kilogram multiplied by 1 reciprocal kilogram multiplied by 1 reciprocal cubic meter:

z = x (1 kg) (1/kg) (1 per cubic meter)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/

So, where is the x "per cubic meter"?
 
I am toying with the idea (only since it has been suggested by someone else) that Snakey might possibly be completely insane and or not understand what plagiarism means and or be a fifteen year old child.
 
History (from Greek ἱστορία - historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by arithmetic") is a branch of mathematics concerning the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of numerical information about past events and its expression in equations. History can also mean the period of time after numerical symbols (such as ^) were invented. Scholars who write about history are called mathematicians or arithmetorians. History is a field of calculation which uses equations and numerical notations to justify one's biases and false claims about what events occurred and how they took place. Historians debate the source of equations, body weight, the links of photographs to numbers, and which numerical expressions may and may not be called "a measurement." Amongst scholars, the 4th-century BC Greek historian γλώσσα φίδι (Latin: SerpensLingua), who pioneered the field of symbolic illogic, is considered to be the "father of history" or "the numbers runner" or "the grand Poobah of formulas and precise results," and, along with his contemporaries, Arithmetorides and εθνικοσοσιαλιστικές (Latin: Nationalibus socialās), forms the foundations for the modern study of history. The influence of these three, along with other mathematical traditions in other parts of the world, has spawned many different interpretations of the nature of numbers, including their mysterious properties and ability to explain everything. The modern study of history has many different fields including those that focus on photographic evidence, body volume and density, Heinrich Himmler, baths and buckets, gas chambers, self-hating Jews, documents of the RHSA and office codes of the Third Reich, the military history of Germany in WWII, and 1939 Adlers; for all of these fields, equations exist to sum up the results and truth of historical investigation - whilst investigations of people, as individuals or in groups, are avoided. Often history is taught as part of primary and secondary education, along with other mathematical branches, and the academic study of history is a minor subtopic in mathematics in University studies.
 
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Another complete nonsense...

Let's transform "corpse" in x:

z = (1Kg / 1m^3) / (1Kg / 1x)

z = x * (Kg) * (1/Kg) * (1/m^3)

z = x * (Kg) * (Kg^-1) * (m^-3)

In mathematics, that means x multiplied by 1 kilogram multiplied by 1 reciprocal kilogram multiplied by 1 reciprocal cubic meter:

z = x (1 kg) (1/kg) (1 per cubic meter)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/

So, where is the x "per cubic meter"?
It's right there in your equation.

z = x (1 kg) (1/kg) (1 per cubic meter)

The (1 kg) (1/kg) terms cancel, leaving
z = x (1 per cubic meter)

i.e. x times (1 per cubic meter)

ETA: x times (1 per cubic meter) = x per cubic meter
 
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I am toying with the idea (only since it has been suggested by someone else) that Snakey might possibly be completely insane and or not understand what plagiarism means and or be a fifteen year old child.

If I had to bet, my money would be on a teenager in his 'I know everything' phase. I was one back in the time, but luckily not as bad.
 
So, first you admitted the method is not yours, but then you proceed to admit the method “was good enough” for you. This is an explicit admission of plagiarism.

Utter nonsense. When I use Mattogno's own method to refute his claims, I'm not plagiarizing him.

You did not present any method from yourself to explain why Carlo Mattogno's method was wrong.

I didn't say Mattogno's calculation method was wrong. My argument is that he used unrealistic data in his calculations, like assuming that adult ghetto Jews weighed 70 kg on average. Hilariously unrealistic.

You just copied his method and presented it as your “realistic” method.

I didn't say the method was mine, I just replaced Mattogno's unrealistic assumptions by more realistic ones.

Now you are even suggesting that my “method may turn out more precise results”, which only indicates you are going to proceed exactly as you did with Carlo Mattogno's method.

Exactly. The method is not bad if one applies it correctly, as you did not.

You are going to admit that my method is right, but I used it wrong.

Unlike you, I'm always open to learning. And you did use it wrong.

If you doubt it, than it is up to you present the evidence which proves my evidence is wrong.

What "evidence" are you talking about?

You failed to present a single picture where semi-starved people of 1.60m and 43Kg are being forced to march down a street.

I don't remember your having asked for a picture, but if you're interested in pictures showing what ghetto inhabitants tended to look like, I can point you to some as soon as I can post links. Or I can do something like that right away. On the Holocaust Controversies blog site, article «Bełżec mass graves and "Revisionist" mathematics», you find the following comments to similar claims made by one of your kindred spirits:

Update, 07.06.2012: You just got to love the comment of a CODOH genius writing as "trevor". The genius posted the following:

"Assuming that the average weight of adult Jews in Polish ghettos at the time was in between the upper and the lower value of what the BMI table considers underweight, it would be (38+48) ÷ 2 = 43 kg. " That is nonsense.

The adults from the photos below look much more than 43 kg body weight.

This remark is followed by a long litany of photographs showing ghetto adults (none from the ghettos from which people were deported to Bełżec, unless I missed something) that supposedly weigh more than 43 kg according to "trevor"'s worthy (and unsubstantiated) opinion.

Apart from the fact that his photos show quite a few people who look underweight to me, what the genius forgets is that the 43 kg (just 6 kg below what the BMI still considers normal weight for an adult 1.60 meters tall) are an assumed average weight for ghetto populations in which some were better off than the average whereas the overwhelming majority was malnourished, often down to starvation level.

What the genius also forgets is that, when it came to deporting people to places like Bełżec, the Nazis first took away mostly the children, the elderly and those young adults that were not in a comparatively good shape, and left behind those who were in a comparatively good shape, as these could be used to work for the German war industry. Thus it would be no susprise if, for instance, Jews captured during the Warsaw Uprising of 1943 were better fed than would correspond to the mid-value of the BMI table's "underweight" range. Those Warsaw Jews usually ended up at Majdanek and not at Treblinka (where bodies were being burned right away at that time) let alone Bełżec (which had been closed down months before).

Regarding the Jews from the ghettos in Eastern Poland deported to Bełżec, Charles Provan provides the following sourced information:

All of the seven people in my experiment were healthy and well nourished. The Jews of eastern Poland (and specifically, Lvov/Lemberg, which is where the Jews of Gerstein's account are said to have come from) were, in August of 1942, ill-fed and even starving.24

In addition to the above, according to ethnological studies done by Dr. Otto Von Verschuer, the Jews of Poland were about three inches shorter than the average German.25 This comparative smallness is confirmed by other authorities, notably John R. Baker and Lothrop Stoddard.26 Since Jews are smaller, this would probably reduce their cubic volume by approximately 5%, when compared to non-Jews of European descent, the ethnic background of all the people in my experiment.

"trevor"'s concluding remark:

If you go through all the photos, you will surely find some emaciated inhabitants of ghettos, just like some obese ones. Majority of ghetto inhabitants are neither emaciated nor obese. They are certainly more than 43 kg.

should be slapped around the fellow's ears, especially the part about "some emaciated inhabitants", considering what Raul Hilberg wrote about conditions and mortality in the Polish ghettos:

The Jewish community of Poland was dying. In the last prewar year, 1938, the monthly average death rate of Łódź was 0.09 percent. In 1941, the rate jumped to 0.63 percent, and during the first six months of 1942 it was 1.49. The same pattern, compressed into a single year, may be noted for the Warsaw ghetto, where the monthly death rate during the first half of 1941 was 0.63, and in the second half 1.47. In their rise to this plateau, the two cities were almost alike, even though Łódź was a hermetically closed ghetto, which had its own currency and in which the black market was essentially the product of internal barter, whereas Warsaw was engaged in extensive smuggling "quietly tolerated" by the Germans. The birthrates in both cities were extremely low: Łódź had one birth for every twenty deaths, while in Warsaw at the beginning of 1942 the ratio was 1:45. The implication of these figures is quite clear. A population with a net loss of one percent a month shrinks to less than five percent of its original size in just twenty-four years.

In absolute figures the long lasting Łódź ghetto, with a cumulative population (including new arrivals and births) of about 200,000, had more than 45,000 dead. The Warsaw Ghetto, with around 470,000 inhabitants over the period from the end of 1941 to the end of the mass deportations in September 1942, buried 83,000 people.

The photos taken in the Warsaw ghetto by German soldier Heinz Joest in autumn 1941 (collection starts here) were obviously quite representative of ghetto life.

You'll have to look up the blog for the link to Joest's photographs, as I can't post it here.

I did not read any article or book from Carlo Mattogno.

You didn't miss anything, trust me.

Moreover, if you think Carlo Mattogno’s method is “rudimentary”, why did you use it?

For the pleasure of stewing Mattogno in his own sauce, and because I didn't realize how rudimentary Mattogno's method is until confronted with the more precise method you misapplied.

AGAIN: Body per cubic meter is not a measurement! Density of Kg per cubic meter divided per mass does not result in body per cubic meter, but in inverse volume:

v^-1 = 663.40Kg/m^3 / 34Kg

[Link]

Reciprocal length or inverse length is a measurement used in several branches of science and mathematics. As the reciprocal of length, common units used for this measurement include the reciprocal metre or inverse metre (m−1), the reciprocal centimetre or inverse centimetre (cm−1), and, in optics, the dioptre.

[Link]

This is complete nonsense.​


Your mathematic wisdom is not very interesting indeed, and I don't see how it's relevant. Whether or not "bodies per cubic meter" is a mathematical measurement, you have to establish how many bodies with a certain average mass and weight could be fit into a cubic meter of grave space in order to establish how many such bodies could be buried in a grave of certain dimensions. Based on Provan's experiment, one can establish how many kilograms of body mass could be made to fit into one cubic meter, still dressed and with enough free space for them to breathe. This density can then be translated into a number of bodies by assuming a certain average weight per body. Bodies per cubic meter may or not be a measurement in a strict mathematical sense, but what does that matter?

You cannot even write down basic mathematical formulations and you pretend that my formula is "deeply flawed"... Fail.

A classic non-argument. Whether or not I can write down "basic mathematical formulations", it doesn't change the fact that the calculations I made on an Excel spreadsheet are correct and that they prove your calculations to be flawed.

From where does the “box smaller” come from? There is no such experiment with such results. You are applying unknown values to my formula.

The "unknown values" come from the logic that the hypothetical test group of 3 adults à 43 kg and 5 children à 16 kg has a somewhat lower mass and weight than Provan's test group, so if you want to simulate how many persons of this hypothetical test group Provan could have fit into a box about as tightly as he fit his test group into a 0.44 m³ box, you have to make the hypothetical test box smaller than Mattogno's test box. I did that by multiplying the volume of Mattogno's test box with the result of dividing the weight of the hypothetical test group (209 kg) through the weight of Mattogno's test group (266 kg).

Mathematics extend (a graph, curve, or range of values) by inferring unknown values from trends in the known data:
(as adjective extrapolated)
a set of extrapolated values


[Link]​

More irrelevant math babble. If your calculations are correct, how come you managed to fit only 14 people with an average weight of 34 kg into one cubic meter when Provan fit 18 people with an average weight of 33.25 kg into one cubic meter? How come Provan's test group occupied less volume on average than the hypothetical test group with 3 adults à 43 kg and 5 children à 16 kg, even though the total and average weights of the latter test group were lower than those of the former? How come each adult and each child in the hypothetical test group occupies exactly the same volume in the test box according to your calculations, regardless of whether you double the weights, cut them in half or uniformly multiply them by or divide them through any given factor, as I demonstrated in this thread's post 2324?

I am not going to discuss mass grave capacity with you anymore. It has become obvious you cannot refute my mathematical methodology with essential evidence. So you only can resort to proceed as you have previously proceeded with Carlo Mattogno's method: you admitted that my method is correct, but only in your imaginary terms without presenting any method of your own.

Actually it wasn't my intention to refute your mathematical methodology, except for the obvious mistake you made in keeping the size of the text box equal despite the much reduced mass and weight of the hypothetical test group. And I also showed you a simpler calculation method, which leads to more or less the same results:

You could also have made things easier for yourself by simply considering the following:

1. Provan's experiment gives us 266 kg in 0.44 m³, which is the equivalent of 604.545455 kg/m³.

2. 604.545455 kg correspond to 17.780749 bodies with an average weight of 34 kg.

3. Thus 17.780749 bodies with an aveage weight of 34 kg fit into 1 cubic meter of grave space.

---

You fail.

I'd say you fail to convince anyone with your pointless lecture about mathematics, which doesn't change the fact that you messed up your calculations or (assuming you are the mathematical genius you claim to be) tried to take your fellow forum members and our readers for a ride.

[You Tube link]

Who are you trying to convince with your rhetoric, other than yourself?​
 
So, where is the x "per cubic meter"?

It's right here, in your own calculation:
.
Let's transform "corpse" in x:

z = (1Kg / 1m^3) / (1Kg / 1x)

z = x * (Kg) * (1/Kg) * (1/m^3)


z = x * (Kg) * (Kg^-1) * (m^-3)

If the same unit of measurement is in the numerator and denominator, that unit cancels out, just as a numerical quantity would in an algebraic calculation. So kg*1/kg=1

It's confusing to write "corpses', a unit of measurement, as x, which is used to represent a numerical quantity. But I'll keep your notation.

So we have x * (Kg) * (Kg^-1) * (m^-3)=x/m^3

or corpses per cubic meter.

For more information on how calculations involving units of measurement work, see

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/High_S...s_in_Chemistry#Using_Units_in_Problem_Solving
 
Why on earth would kg/person not be a valid unit of measurement simply because the individuals in question are dead? Eurostat, to take just one example, uses it. In general, per capita measures are commonly used in a large number of social science disciplines.

Also, SnakeTongue: A week or so ago, you said Roberto's calculation resulted in inverse length. Please lead us through you got that result if kg/kg doesn't equal 1.
 
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Good evening.

There is a good debate going on here, a lot of information. I'd just like to add some things that I've come across while researching this subject.

I've noticed a tactic used by exterminationists which is they have a select few 'celebrity holocaust survivors' that promote/give speeches about gas chambers and various stories related to them, the most known is Elie 'the Weasel' Wiesel who acts like he is the King of holocaust survivors much like Jesse Jackson is the King of black people. While there are thousands of survivors who are not asked any questions relating to the gas chambers at all. This gives the impression that all the survivors would have similar stories to the average person who does no research.

Take Spielberg's Shoah Foundation as a reference. They have thousands of interviews on video that talk about daily life in the camps with many survivors. I'm sure many here have seen 'The Last Days' film where they took a handful of survivors who talk extensively on gas chambers and give horrifying accounts. Yet when one delves deeper into the video collection on the Shoah Foundation website the rest of the survivors are not asked what they saw relating to gas chambers.

Auschwitz Birkenau would be a good example. The Football field was in use a lot, yet it was roughly a mere 50 feet away from one of gas chambers in direct view as a matter of fact. With a simple barbed-wire fence in between. A perfect question would be to ask any Birkenau inmate the following:

"Did you ever witness thousands of people lined up every day and night waiting to enter the chamber while you were at the Football field or passing by?"

Yet this question is not asked to the overwhelming majority of inmates, but they would have seen this as a daily occurrence if the event happened the way the exterminationists claim. No doubt it would have been talk of the town, all the inmates would gather at the fences to witness such a horror. It would be unforgettable. The British POW Football team that visited Auschwitz would have talked about it. In fact it would have been impossible to hide since it was happening so close to the camp, hardly a top secret operation.

This is why I think the real survivors are being deceived. They're being asked normal questions while the 'celebrity' survivors talk about working in the chambers and surviving gassings, in some cases, 6 times. Some of these people don't even have tattoos which is required if you worked in Auschwitz but their testimony, rather than be treated with skepticism, is being treated as indisputable fact! Not only that but they are being used as sources in holocaust books which are taught in schools! It reeks of pseudo history.

A lot of people seem to fall for the trap, they hear a handful of 'survivors' talk about gas chambers then associate their views with every other survivor without any afterthought. The right questions need to be asked, there were hundreds of thousands of people who lived or passed through Birkenau who would have witnessed the endless lines of Jews being lead to the chambers, but the questions that would disprove or prove this are NOT being asked and it is a very clever trick.

We do not have much time, the real survivors are passing on and the truth goes with them. Once they go we're stuck with obviously fabricated accounts of a handful of 'celebrity' survivors and hoaxers who have given testimony that go against the laws of physics, science, common sense, mathematics and critical thinking. People need to stop going on belief and emotion and take a step back and look at the claim for what it is. The truth needs no laws to defend it, but there is seriously something wrong with the events claimed by a very small group of people.
 
There is a good debate going on here, a lot of information. I'd just like to add some things that I've come across while researching this subject.
... on denier websites exclusively ...
I've noticed a tactic used by exterminationists
See?
which is they have a select few 'celebrity holocaust survivors' that promote/give speeches about gas chambers and various stories related to them, the most known is Elie 'the Weasel' Wiesel who acts like he is the King of holocaust survivors much like Jesse Jackson is the King of black people.
Not that this poster has any biases which are coming into play, or anything...
While there are thousands of survivors who are not asked any questions relating to the gas chambers at all. This gives the impression that all the survivors would have similar stories to the average person who does no research.

Take Spielberg's Shoah Foundation as a reference.
Instead, why not use one of them there history books?
They have thousands of interviews on video that talk about daily life in the camps with many survivors. I'm sure many here have seen 'The Last Days'
You appear to be "sure" of many things which have no basis in reality.
film where they took a handful of survivors who talk extensively on gas chambers and give horrifying accounts. Yet when one delves deeper into the video collection on the Shoah Foundation website the rest of the survivors are not asked what they saw relating to gas chambers.
Perhaps because they were not inmates in those parts of those camps, and this was known to the filmmakers? Just blue skying here...
Auschwitz Birkenau would be a good example. The Football field was in use a lot,
Define "a lot".
yet it was roughly a mere 50 feet away from one of gas chambers in direct view as a matter of fact. With a simple barbed-wire fence in between. A perfect question would be to ask any Birkenau inmate the following:

"Did you ever witness thousands of people lined up every day and night waiting to enter the chamber while you were at the Football field or passing by?"

Yet this question is not asked to the overwhelming majority of inmates,
Mainly because it is a denier strawman, since no one claims thousands of people lined up every day and night...
but they would have seen this as a daily occurrence if the event happened the way the exterminationists claim.
Can you name one "exterminationist" who makes this claim -- or better yet, an historian who has studied these events?
No doubt it would have been talk of the town, all the inmates would gather at the fences to witness such a horror.
And there is no doubt because ... ?
It would be unforgettable. The British POW Football team that visited Auschwitz would have talked about it. In fact it would have been impossible to hide since it was happening so close to the camp, hardly a top secret operation.
It was happening *in* the camp, but we'll let that one slide for now. Why should the British team have noticed any such thing? It would seem that they were there, not to ogle random lines of people but to, you know, play football?
This is why I think the real survivors are being deceived. They're being asked normal questions while the 'celebrity' survivors talk about working in the chambers and surviving gassings, in some cases, 6 times.
*Some*? You can name, oh, let's say, 6 such cases cited by historians?
Some of these people don't even have tattoos which is required if you worked in Auschwitz
*Some*? You can name, oh, let's say, 6 such cases cited by historians?
but their testimony, rather than be treated with skepticism, is being treated as indisputable fact! Not only that but they are being used as sources in holocaust books which are taught in schools! It reeks of pseudo history.

A lot of people seem to fall for the trap, they hear a handful of 'survivors' talk about gas chambers then associate their views with every other survivor without any afterthought. The right questions need to be asked,
And have been, for decades, by those engaged in *actual* research and not mindlessly parroting denier canards.
there were hundreds of thousands of people who lived or passed through Birkenau
Millions.
who would have witnessed the endless lines of Jews being lead to the chambers, but the questions that would disprove or prove this are NOT being asked and it is a very clever trick.
Because one always asks the survivors of a horrific tragedy for a head count on those that didn't make it, when there are other less confrontational ways of making that determination...
We do not have much time, the real survivors are passing on and the truth goes with them. Once they go we're stuck with obviously fabricated accounts of a handful of 'celebrity' survivors and hoaxers who have given testimony that go against the laws of physics, science, common sense, mathematics and critical thinking.
Not to mention being stuck with literally miles of documentation from the perpetrators, *their* testimonies, the physical traces left behind and the millions of people who cannot be accounted for in any other evidence supported way...
People need to stop going on belief and emotion and take a step back and look at the claim for what it is. The truth needs no laws to defend it, but there is seriously something wrong with the events claimed by a very small group of people.
Yes, yes -- that damned historian cabal, and every person working in an historical archive as well -- a tiny group of people only opposed by and even tinier group of those who demonstrably lie about these events in an ever more impotent attempt to justify their hate.
 
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People that think the Holocaust is a hoax should watch the documentary "Auschwitz: Inside The Nazi State". It's available on Youtube for free. It includes a ton of evidence of what went on at Auschwitz, from construction to liberation. I know deniers don't believe any of the survivors, so this should be a great documentary for you guys because there are interviews with former SS guards who worked at Auschwitz. They go into chilling detail of what went on there. Are they lying too? How about the American, British and Soviet troops who liberated many of these camps throughout Europe? All lying?

Anyway, I've made it halfway though this thread (reading). This SnakeTongue has been running from every piece of evidence presented to him. That and it's been a complete intellectual demolishing thanks to Terry and LemmyCaution. The best part, he keeps coming back for more, totally unaware of how big of a fool he looks like.
 
Body per cubic meter it is not a unit for calculations:

If you are trying to calculate the number of bodies that will fit into a given volume, this sounds like a perfectly fine unit for your calculations.
 
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milkfox;8362734 I've noticed a tactic used by [HILITE said:
exterminationists[/HILITE] ................

Could you please tell me what you mean by exterminationists?
 
I've noticed a tactic used by exterminationists which is they have a select few 'celebrity holocaust survivors' that promote/give speeches about gas chambers and various stories . . .
I am not familiar with the work of exterminationists or even who they are and their methodology. It sounds like crap, if they rely on a few "stars" to form their views. OTOH, I do know how historians and other scholars of the Holocaust have worked and how they've established beyond doubt that the Third Reich carried out a genocide against European Jews.

Historians do not rely on a "celebrity survivors" or even survivors. They, instead, make use of whatever relevant evidence remains about the period and issues they study - in multiple forms, of various types and differing quality. They study and compare the evidence, evaluate it, and draw conclusions based on it. In general, their conclusions come from their analysis of multiple, independent, and cross correlated sources and pieces of evidence.

Earlier in this thread, we discussed the mass murders at Ponar in 1941. Like historians, we examined multiple diaries kept by witnesses and observers, court testimony, German police and civil administration documents and reports, demographic data, Wehrmacht and Einsatzgruppen records, physical studies of the site, memoirs, maps, newspapers, posters, etc. Like historians, we carefully cross checked pieces of evidence with pieces of evidence. We also noticed how deniers were constitutionally incapable of dealing with all this, focusing instead on a few random points they felt don't fit in.

As opposed to deniers and others with axes to grind, historians learn to interpret a range of sources and use different forms of evidence to interrogate other forms, relying not on smoking guns and supposedly easy answers. Deniers, with their black and white view of the world, have trouble grasping how historians work and prefer going a point at a time and looking for random anomalies, small discrepancies, and magic answers.

In the threads on Holocaust denial, those members citing historians - to make the point clear - have discussed or referenced a wide range of souces, including census reports, statistical analysis such as demographic, economic, etc.; trial affidavits, ranscripts, testimony, and judgments; newspaper and other such reports from the time; posters, handbills, announcements; meeting notes, conference proceedings, and the like; speeches; correspondence, telegrams, and so on; construction plans and records; official documents, military, government, business and other institutional records and reports, personnel records, etc.; financial records; laws and official proceedings, regulations, etc.; photographs and film footage; diaries and journals; eyewitness reports; physical evidence; memoirs and oral histories; contemporary investigations and trials; technical information, manuals, and so forth.

By learning from such sources, historians and even lowly members of this thread can sift out unreliable sources and witnesses - and problematical points of testimony - from what correlates and meshes well with the range of evidence concerning the Holocaust. What historians and lowly members of this thread (leaving aside deniers) do not do is focus on one form of evidence and a handful of celebrities or stars (we would not, for example, focus on a "star" like Wiesel to determine our conclusions about gas chambers at Birkenau, when Wiesel himself was held at Buna Werke, a number of km distant from Birkenau; rather, we would use, as noted, a range of evidence, prioritizing that which is closest in time and location to the events and actions being studied).

It would be good of you to identify these exterminationists to whom you refer. For my part, I will try to continue operating like a historian would. If the deniers on this thread would try doing so, I am sure our discussions would be improved, although I doubt we'd have any deniers left.
 
I am not familiar with the work of exterminationists or even who they are and their methodology. It sounds like crap, if they rely on a few "stars" to form their views. OTOH, I do know how historians and other scholars of the Holocaust have worked and how they've established beyond doubt that the Third Reich carried out a genocide against European Jews.

Historians do not rely on a "celebrity survivors" or even survivors. They, instead, make use of whatever relevant evidence remains about the period and issues they study - in multiple forms, of various types and differing quality. They study and compare the evidence, evaluate it, and draw conclusions based on it. In general, their conclusions come from their analysis of multiple, independent, and cross correlated sources and pieces of evidence.

..........

In fact. I never even heard from these "celebrity survivors" before (with the sole exeptions of Simon Wiesenthal and Otto Frank).
I heard from these "celebrities" through the deniers who keep on mentioning their names. Nobody else does.
 
... Not to mention being stuck with literally miles of documentation from the perpetrators, *their* testimonies, the physical traces left behind and the millions of people who cannot be accounted for in any other evidence supported way...

And any attempt to get the Deniers to explain what happened to them is either met with a dodge (Dogzilla trying to reverse the question) or outright nonsense (Clayton Moore saying they never existed at all).

The nice thing about incredulity is that you can take whatever evidence exists and say it's wrong because They didn't ask a specific question, even when other methods have more than proven it.
 
In fact. I never even heard from these "celebrity survivors" before (with the sole exeptions of Simon Wiesenthal and Otto Frank).
I heard from these "celebrities" through the deniers who keep on mentioning their names. Nobody else does.

Deniers utterly fail to connect these "stars" to how historians know what they do about the period. Almost none of them - especially when you get to the Zisblatts and that ilk - figure in any historical works. There are rare citations to Elie Wiesel, for example, but not for the purposes deniers attribute to him. One could erase the testimony and statements of the "stars" completely - and we would still know more or less exactly what we know today.

Many of the figures mentioned are mostly involved in commemorative or popularization efforts - and have nothing to do with the state of historical knowledge. These "stars," then focus on something different to researching the history. The two discussions - establishing the history, commemorating victims/outreach and education - are not the same. It is probably the case that many people talking to groups of seniors, school kids, clubs and organizations are not well qualified and lacking in current knowledge. Poor educational efforts are a shame, but they don't speak to the discussion of the history itself. Deniers routinely conflate the two discussions, for obvious motives.
 
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Could you please tell me what you mean by exterminationists?

I think exterminationist, in this context, refers to "people who believe that Jews were systematically and intentionally mass murdered by the Nazis." Also known as "the population of the Earth minus several dozen HD kooks." :boggled:
 
... on denier websites exclusively ...

No I'm talking about this website.


Not that this poster has any biases which are coming into play, or anything...
Nope, it's just what I've come to notice, only a few talk about gas chambers, hell only 2 have even gone under oath when talking about their experiences and they both collapsed.

Instead, why not use one of them there history books?

I have, and found they use each other as sources then use a select few 'survivors' as sources too. So I decided to watch real survivors and their experiences on video, thousands of them, going to the source.

You appear to be "sure" of many things which have no basis in reality.
You're right, I wrongly assumed many people here had watched the documentaries and got informed.

Perhaps because they were not inmates in those parts of those camps, and this was known to the filmmakers? Just blue skying here...
Then they should at least ask those questions, but they don't ask anything relating to the gas chambers, only daily life in the camps.

Define "a lot".
It was open to anyone as it was inside the camp itself, as stated before POW teams would actually go there to play against other teams. If you watch the Shoah Foundation interviews you would hear survivors talk about it.

Mainly because it is a denier strawman, since no one claims thousands of people lined up every day and night...
Then you've just debunked the holocaust, congratulations. For the claim to be true, and the numbers to be correct, endless lines of people would be lining up day and night.

Can you name one "exterminationist" who makes this claim -- or better yet, an historian who has studied these events?
No because no questions are asked of all the survivors about the gas chambers, as stated before. It's automatically assumed everyone saw it, thus there is no need for investigation. Very unscientific.

It was happening *in* the camp, but we'll let that one slide for now. Why should the British team have noticed any such thing? It would seem that they were there, not to ogle random lines of people but to, you know, play football?
Because the holocaust was occurring 50 feet away in clear view of the football field. Something like that doesn't just slip your mind.

Millions.
The Birkenau documentation only shows a peak population of 160,000 and a lot of those were sent to other camps. Roughly 100,000 at any one time were living in Birkenau. You're going on blind faith.

Not to mention being stuck with literally miles of documentation from the perpetrators, *their* testimonies, the physical traces left behind and the millions of people who cannot be accounted for in any other evidence supported way...
You mean their testimonies which contradict one another and were also forced via torture? Read Legions of Death, the British soldier even takes pride of the fact they forced a signed statement from Hoess.

Yes, yes -- that damned historian cabal, and every person working in an historical archive as well -- a tiny group of people only opposed by and even tinier group of those who demonstrably lie about these events in an ever more impotent attempt to justify their hate.
If you've studied the holocaust you'd know it originated from a very small group of people, the only reason it grew was because these 'historians' use each other as sources and DO NOT do their own investigation. Simply READ their books and look at the sources.

You ask very amature questions and it's obvious you haven't done any research or studied at least Birkenau(the most notorious 'deathcamp' that kept hundreds of thousands of people alive, quite a failed death camp imo).

Pro tip: Read the exterminationist books, look at their sources, most of them still believe in the human soap and lampshade soviet propaganda! Some of them even claimed the Nazis used an atomic bomb to kill loads of Jews! This was actually accepted as fact until it was later debunked. THERE IS room for debate stop being closed minded.

The 6 million figure is biblical, it's been used by Zionist groups throughout history. When it was discovered the Soviets lied about Auschwitz death count and it went from 4 million to 1.1 million...WHY didn't the figure change? WHY is it still 6 million? Why are so many people blindly going on faith alone? It's such an obvious lie that serves a religious purpose.

And just on a quick note. Is there any thesis by an exterminationist here that shows how you can burn 5 100lb(45kg) bodies within 30 minutes? Gabbai said 4 bodies within 30-40 minutes while I think it's Van Pelt who says 5 bodies in his book. Having seen the ovens how the hell did they get so many bodies to fit in there?
 
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You're right, I wrongly assumed many people here had watched the documentaries and got informed.

So you equate having watched those documentaries to being informed?

What of those who have studied the history, the documentary evidence, the photographic, archeaological and material evidence?

What of those who are genuinely "informed"?
 
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