Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

I tried to Google it but apparently the detail I want gets drowned out. Is the abrasion on TM's hand his only injury?
With my layman's knowledge I'd expect more hematoma or swelling on GZ's head. But then again I know from childhood experience that the skin on the head is rather thin and prone to breaking. So I can fit the injuries more with a struggle and less with the cinematic pounding.
That notwithstanding I'm not sure that makes any difference if you fear for your life.
That being said I don't think a conviction for murder is likely and given the situation I don't think it should be. There's too much doubt so to say.

That is the extent of what the ME documented in the autopsy report, as I recall.

As far as Zimmerman's injuries, they were consistent with what you say... fighting, not with being beaten to death.

And that is one of the reasons that I've been saying that if Zimmerman is going to play the 'fear for my life' card, it wouldn't be during the fight, but at the point at which Martin went for a gun... Zimmerman's gun.
That's his strongest claim, and it pretty much leaves the prosecution with not much more than 'Isn't it true that you swore you owned a red truck when it was really a burgundy SUV? So why should we believe you now??' type of tactics.
(Of which the judge should only allow so much).

And at that point on the narrative, we haven't seen physical evidence that stands out.

So unless the prosecution has something out of left field, like clubhouse video, or a missing eyewitness, I still think their case is weak. Not because of SYG, but on the basics of self defense.

 

[Dancing David]

While you are here, recall that the only reason I put up a portion of one of Jeralyn's comments was because you said you weren't familiar with her and wanted to know if she provided certs with her answers. All I was doing was responding to that request, and picked the first thing at her site I came across to show you she did indeed cite when it was called for. That is all. The content of that portion of her post, which turned out to be about Franks, was irrelevant. It wasn't posted for its content, just to answer your question about her.

Fair enough, I had read it differently. My question was about her opinion in the TM/GZ case.

I apologize.

 

[GWCarver]

If I want my own fact to trumpet, I'll stick with, you know, actual facts.

You asserted "the state can't prove Zimmerman didn't act in self-defense" was a fact. You cited Serino's statement about his own investigation as evidence of that "fact".

This of course ignores the fact that Serino made a contradictory statement in his capias request to what he stated in the Sentinel article, and the fact that the prosecution's investigation was actually conducted separately from Serino's.

So even if we ignore the contradiction in Serino's statements, there's still the inconvenient detail that Serino's opinion of his own investigation has no bearing on the validity of the state's case since they did their own investigation.

And all the while you keep telling me I'm on the wrong side of the facts.

The problem is, I haven't seen you present any facts. Just specious conjecture for which you are apparently very desperate to be a fact.

I haven't ignored Serino's Capias, I have maintained it isn't what it appears to be, not only because of its content, but because of his subsequent statement that contradicts the Capias, and the fact that it wasn't approved.

I think we've beat this to death enough for now; I'm sure we'll get back to it later. Just out of curiosity, what facts do you have at your disposal that support 2nd degree murder? I can't think of any.

 

[sgtbaker]

I think a more pertinent question would be why your interpretation of Witness #6's statements is more reliable than his own. I think he is in a better position to tell us what he saw and heard than you are.

To your point, I'll certainly concede that initial statements are more reliable than those made weeks later. But unfortunately, that has no bearing in this case.

Evidence is evidence. And the evidence that is Witness #6's statements tells us he he cannot identify the screamer or be sure if Martin was hitting Zimmerman. Full stop.

You don't get to excise that from the record because you have arbitrarily deemed it unreliable anymore than I get to pretend Zimmerman didn't break his nose because I find the medical records unreliable.

I didn't think "the guy on top was hitting him MMA style," or "the guy in the bottom was yelling at me, help help," were open to interpretation. They seem pretty specific and face value, kind of statements.

I don't get to decide what is used in court but I can use what I know to be true (time and outside influence does effect memory) to decide for myself, which of the conflicting statements are more reliable. The same way you can look at the wounds and decide for yourself, the severity of the assault. I look at the fact that he was clear about the color of the shirts they were wearing, the night if the incident, and the fact that three weeks later, he can't be sure if Zimmerman is wearing red or white, as supporting evidence that his memory is degraded and less reliable.

 

[Dan O.]

And that is one of the reasons that I've been saying that if Zimmerman is going to play the 'fear for my life' card, it wouldn't be during the fight, but at the point at which Martin went for a gun... Zimmerman's gun.

Your argument falls apart because there is only one gun. A reasonable person holding a gun cannot be afraid that another person is going to shoot him with it. You want to claim there was a struggle for the gun? Trayvon had bare hands, his attempt to wrestle the gun away from George would necessarily leave DNA evidence on the gun.

Remember those last words Zimmerman said he heard from Trayvon,"You got me, You got me". Those are not the words of a dying kid shot through the heart and lung because such a kid would have no words. Those are the words of a kid that is surrendering and the last words of a 17 year old kid before he was murdered by George Zimmerman.

 

[GWCarver]

Your argument falls apart because there is only one gun. A reasonable person holding a gun cannot be afraid that another person is going to shoot him with it. You want to claim there was a struggle for the gun? Trayvon had bare hands, his attempt to wrestle the gun away from George would necessarily leave DNA evidence on the gun.

Remember those last words Zimmerman said he heard from Trayvon,"You got me, You got me". Those are not the words of a dying kid shot through the heart and lung because such a kid would have no words. Those are the words of a kid that is surrendering and the last words of a 17 year old kid before he was murdered by George Zimmerman.

I believe that is the version Crump was passing around. Here is a different version that I think plays better for those who think Z is guilty. There have also been reports that he said this twice:

Trayvon Martin‘s last words were, “Okay, you got it,” a law enforcement source told The Daily Beast

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/19/r...ons-last-words-okay-you-got-it/#ixzz1xUjUWnzR

ETA - What I meant was, if I were arguing this case for the prosecution, I would say, "Okay, you got it" meant the fight for the gun was over, Z had won, and TM wanted to retreat. If Z's statements say TM's last words were after the gunshot, I would find a medical expert to say that it was impossible for him to talk after being shot in the heart.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Your argument falls apart because there is only one gun. A reasonable person holding a gun cannot be afraid that another person is going to shoot him with it. You want to claim there was a struggle for the gun? Trayvon had bare hands, his attempt to wrestle the gun away from George would necessarily leave DNA evidence on the gun.

Remember those last words Zimmerman said he heard from Trayvon,"You got me, You got me". Those are not the words of a dying kid shot through the heart and lung because such a kid would have no words. Those are the words of a kid that is surrendering and the last words of a 17 year old kid before he was murdered by George Zimmerman.

So if GZ pulled the trigger with bare hands, his DNA evidence would be on the trigger, yes ?

The hilited claim is second or third hand at best.

 

[Unabogie]

Your argument falls apart because there is only one gun. A reasonable person holding a gun cannot be afraid that another person is going to shoot him with it. You want to claim there was a struggle for the gun? Trayvon had bare hands, his attempt to wrestle the gun away from George would necessarily leave DNA evidence on the gun.

Remember those last words Zimmerman said he heard from Trayvon,"You got me, You got me". Those are not the words of a dying kid shot through the heart and lung because such a kid would have no words. Those are the words of a kid that is surrendering and the last words of a 17 year old kid before he was murdered by George Zimmerman.

Several forensic details seem odd to me. One, as you said, no DNA on the gun. Someone posted earlier in the thread that guns don't take fingerprints well. Even if that part is true, what about other DNA from the hands? But let's go back to Trayvon's hands. There is none of George's blood there. George's story is that he was punched repeatedly and had his head bashed against the ground- repeatedly. We know from the pictures that George was bleeding at least at some point, yet none of that blood got on Trayvon's hands and we know Trayvon was not wearing gloves. How do you manhandle a bloody head and not get a drop of the stuff on your fingers? And of course, the lack of marks on Trayvon's hands. No cuts or bruises on his punching hands or knuckles. Just a tiny abrasion on his left hand ring finger, not close to a knuckle.

 

[Unabogie]

So if GZ pulled the trigger with bare hands, his DNA evidence would be on the trigger, yes ?

The hilited claim is second or third hand at best.

Didn't that come from George's father? If so, it's first hand explaining what George said to him. It doesn't go to the truth of what Trayvon said after George shot him, it can certainly be used to impeach George if something like that is physically impossible. Not saying it is, just pointing out that George telling his father a tale and then Mr. Zimmerman relaying that is direct testimony of what Mr. Zimmerman heard from his son.

 

[Dan O.]

So if GZ pulled the trigger with bare hands, his DNA evidence would be on the trigger, yes ?.

Can you explain the difference between 8 pounds of force necessary to pull the trigger and a life and death struggle over a gun?

Personally, I think that George's DNA should have been found on the trigger. Forensics tested for it in that specific location because they expect to find it there. I suppose we could look for studies to see in what percentage of cases the shooter leaves DNA on the trigger. Similarly for DNA left in a struggle.


ETA: (here), Trigger ID is successfully in identifying the shooter in 54% of gun cases. This statistic isn't however broken down to the location on the gun where DNA is found.

 

[Unabogie]

Can you explain the difference between 8 pounds of force necessary to pull the trigger and a life and death struggle over a gun?

Personally, I think that George's DNA should have been found on the trigger. Forensics tested for it in that specific location because they expect to find it there. I suppose we could look for studies to see in what percentage of cases the shooter leaves DNA on the trigger. Similarly for DNA left in a struggle.

We don't even know if George claimed Trayvon had his hand on the gun. "Went for the gun" could just mean he lunged for it. But if he lunged for it, then doesn't that sound like it was already in his hands? I don't get the scenario at all. George says Trayvon was straddling him. That means his thighs are around George's waist. Sort of butt to belt. That means his legs are blocking the gun and the gun is behind Trayvon's reach. He'd have to turn around and reach behind himself to go for the gun. If he even knew it was there. But how would he if it was out of sight? That makes no sense. Also, in that position, wouldn't he have fallen down after being shot? Meaning fallen right on top of George? Again, where's the blood? None of Trayvon's blood is on George. It's hard for a health person to get up from a straddle, especially after a fight. But Trayvon took a bullet right to the heart and lungs and then got up quickly enough to avoid bleeding on George?

It's just weird..

But there's another witness statement that always seemed odd to me. The whole "he had his hands up around his head". I presume he was still holding the gun at this time? I can picture a guy who lost it and shot in anger quickly hitting himself with the thought of "self defense" in his head. I wonder if he used the butt of his gun to give himself extra marks.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...partial-jury-immunity-hearing-defense-lawyers

 

[LTC8K6]

Several forensic details seem odd to me. One, as you said, no DNA on the gun. Someone posted earlier in the thread that guns don't take fingerprints well. Even if that part is true, what about other DNA from the hands? But let's go back to Trayvon's hands. There is none of George's blood there. George's story is that he was punched repeatedly and had his head bashed against the ground- repeatedly. We know from the pictures that George was bleeding at least at some point, yet none of that blood got on Trayvon's hands and we know Trayvon was not wearing gloves. How do you manhandle a bloody head and not get a drop of the stuff on your fingers? And of course, the lack of marks on Trayvon's hands. No cuts or bruises on his punching hands or knuckles. Just a tiny abrasion on his left hand ring finger, not close to a knuckle.

My hands would not be bloody if I punched you in the nose, and then got on top of you and banged your head on the ground a few times.

Plus, it might have rained hard enough to wash blood off of lots of places where we would otherwise have seen it.

 

[Unabogie]

My hands would not be bloody if I punched you in the nose, and then got on top of you and banged your head on the ground a few times.

Plus, it might have rained hard enough to wash blood off of lots of places where we would otherwise have seen it.

Fingernails too? In a life or death struggle? No, that doesn't seem plausible to me.

Also, are we now abandoning MMA style punching? It's down to a single punch and then wrestling?

 

[Cylinder]

Several forensic details seem odd to me. One, as you said, no DNA on the gun.

There was DNA found on all three swabs Zimmerman's firearm:

Zimmerman's DNA was found on the grip (DMS-21A) along with an unknown profile that excluded Martin. DMS-21A tested positive for the presence of blood.

The DNA result from the trigger (DMS-21B) could not be interpreted.

The DNA result from the slide (DMS-21C) was consistent with at least one male donor but was of insuffecient quality for inclusion.

Someone posted earlier in the thread that guns don't take fingerprints well.

There's no fingerprint report for the firearm that I can find at this point.

 

[LTC8K6]

A shot to the heart doesn't necessarily instantly incapacitate you. Your brain still has oxygen for several seconds. People have survived shots through the heart.

 

[Cylinder]

Can you explain the difference between 8 pounds of force necessary to pull the trigger and a life and death struggle over a gun?

Where are you getting an 8lb trigger pull? FDLE tested it between 4.5 and 4.75lbs.

 

[crimresearch]

Where are you getting an 8lb trigger pull? FDLE tested it between 4.5 and 4.75lbs.

Which is pretty much factory specs.

 

[LTC8K6]

Fingernails too? In a life or death struggle? No, that doesn't seem plausible to me.

Also, are we now abandoning MMA style punching? It's down to a single punch and then wrestling?

I'm referring to banging the head on the ground. That can easily be done without getting one's hands bloody or injured.

I was never a fan of any MMA style punching in this case. I don't think it happened. I think we had a couple punches at most, then a lot of head banging.

I think the witness saw some hand fighting between the two as GZ occasionally managed to get TM's hands off of him, then TM would get the advantage again.

Possibly as TM was trying to keep GZ quiet?

Again though, we are hampered by not knowing exactly what GZ said, and having no real witnesses to the fighting except W6.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.amazon.com/Gunshot-Wounds-Ballistics-Techniques-Investigations/dp/0849395046

Page 254.

Warning. Do not look through the rest of this book unless you want to see pics of wounds.