Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

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Posted by DOC
Who in here disagrees with Bart Ehrman and most other biblical scholars and believes the Jesus of Nazareth never existed? And why do you feel that way?

Why are you asking this question after having already ignored these posts and many more just like them?...
Because there are some people in here like yourself who don't believe the historical Jesus mentioned in the bible ever existed and I would like you to explain what evidence makes you disagree with Ehrman's assertion that Jesus certainly existed.
 
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I don't remember ever saying Ehrman said Jesus was from Nazareth, I said his book says in big bold print in its jacket: Yes, Jesus of Nazareth did exist.


Are you now claiming that the words on the inside cover of the book are not Ehrman's and that he doesn't believe Jesus of Nazareth existed?



And I said Ehrman said "Jesus certainly existed" on page 173.


This is another Jesus then, is it? Different to the one mentioned on the inside of the cover in big, bold print?


I'll answer this when you agree this is a religious question and not a historical question and questions like these should be in the religious section.


Stop whining and stop trying to derail my thread.
 
DOC;;8359479 said:
Posted by DOC
Who in here disagrees with Bart Ehrman and most other biblical scholars and believes the Jesus of Nazareth never existed? And why do you feel that way?

Why are you asking this question after having already ignored these posts and many more just like them?...


You're still ignoring the people who have already answered.

Also, lern 2 kwote.


DOC;;8359479 said:
Because there are some people in here like yourself who don't believe the historical Jesus mentioned in the bible ever existed and I would like you to explain what evidence makes you disagree with Ehrman's assertion that Jesus certainly existed.


This clumsy attempt to conflate the Jesus of the Bible with the Jesus that Ehrman is talking about is exactly what I'm referring to when I say that you are ignoring the people who have already answered your question.


Since you're a fan of big, bold letters . . .


The magical zombie Jesus of the Bible and the alleged historical Jesus that Ehrman is talking about are not the same entity.
 
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Apparently the bar has been lowered to the point where an admission of mere existence is cause for celebration.

Sad.

It is sorta heartbreaking to watch the "True Believers" jump all over even the tinniest, most abstract, shred of peripheral evidence that there mythologies could be correct like a starving man on a bacon cheeseburger.

For a group of people that make a huge deal about how they don't need evidence they have faith, I've never seen one of them pass evidence by.

That's why the whole song and dance is such a hypocritical BS story. If someone produced hard evidence, I mean real hard evidence not the crapola (The we found this board with a nail in it near a mountain somewhere, ergo Noah's Ark existed exactly as explained in the Bible sorta thing) we sometimes get feed to us, that a story in a religious dogma was true, not a single religious person would shrug their shoulders and go "Oh that's doesn't matter. I don't need evidence. I have my faith." They would latch onto it, used it to validate their entire belief system, and rub it in our faces until the day they died.

Religious people only consider evidence unimportant when they don't have it.
 
Do you acknowledge that Ehrman never says Jesus was the Christ?


I'll answer this when you agree this is a religious question and not a historical question and questions like these should be in the religious section.


How is ddt's question any less historical/more religious than the question of whether the New Testament writers told the truth?

Keep in mind while you're Wilburing up an answer that it's more or less the same question.


Weasel2.png
 
DOC said:
Because there are some people in here like yourself who don't believe the historical Jesus mentioned in the bible ever existed
You're confusing a few issues here, DOC. That A Jeshua bin Joseph existed isn't disputed, generally--the name wasn't uncommon. It'd be like disputing the existence of John Smith. Of COURSE someone by that name existed. This, however, is an entirely different question from whether the Jeshua bin Joseph in the Bible existed. THAT Jeshua turned water into wine, raised the dead, healed blindness with his spit, etc. That character likely never existed--in fact, it's likely a compilation of numerous myths built around a number of messianic figures at that time, and a healthy dose of flat-out making stuff up.

If you want to prove that the Jeshua bin Joseph in the Bible was real, you have to prove that what happened in the Bible really happened. If you want to say that it's based off of a real person, you have to admit that the Bible includes fabrication. If you want to argue that a guy named Jeshua bin Joseph existed, the Bible is irrelevant.

I'll answer this when you agree this is a religious question and not a historical question
If this particular Jeshua was the Christ it'd be the single most important historical event since the Big Bang. So what this question actually means is "I'll answer this when you agree that no matter what I say, it won't actually mean anything."
 
I don't remember ever saying Ehrman said Jesus was from Nazareth, I said his book says in big bold print in its jacket: Yes, Jesus of Nazareth did exist. And I said Ehrman said "Jesus certainly existed" on page 173.
With this weaseling, you'll never be a true martyr for the cause.

I'll answer this when you agree this is a religious question and not a historical question and questions like these should be in the religious section.
I don't believe you. You have failed to answer loads of questions. Why don't you start showing your good will and answer the question below:

In your enthusiasm about Ehrman's new book you might forget there's still a question you need to answer. It's about your favourite historian, Luke. Here it is again:
Or there simply could have been a Palestine census at exactly the time Luke reported and Quirinius could have been an official at that time. Rulers and politicians do hold more than one office in their lifetime. This census was around 4 BC. Josephus wasn't even born then and he didn't write about this time period until about 91 AD. Also Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD so its not like there would be a lot of census records laying around (for Joshephus to read) of something that happened 95 years ago.
First of all, the text does not support that. You have brought in Heichelheim and Geisler claiming that, but you have not given any argumentation why their claims are valid. Let's go over that 9-word sentence of Luke 2:2 again:
αὑτη ἡ ἀπογραφη πρωτη ἐγενετο ἡγεμονευοντος της Συριας Κυρηνιου
Now, let's break down that sentence.

It's subject is αὑτη ἡ ἀπογραφη - "that census". The word αὑτη is a demonstrative pronoun ("that"), and refers back to the previous verse where it said that Augustus ordered a census. The word ἡ is the definite article (which is usual in Greek in this construct but obviously not translated in English). Lastly, ἀπογραφη means census; it's a feminine word; as it's the subject, it's in the nominative; and it's singular;. The words αὑτη and ἡ are inflected to agree with that.

The verb is ἐγενετο. It's the aorist indicative, 3rd person singular of γιγνομαι - to become, to be, to happen (cf. the English word Genesis). It acts here as a copula.

Then the word we've skipped: πρωτη. That is a superlative of an adjective that has no positive grade, and means "first" or "earliest". A Greek superlative may also be translated as "very ...", so "very early" would also be possible. It's inflected in the nominative singular feminine, and so it's the predicate of the copula.

Then the last four words: ἡγεμονευοντος της Συριας Κυρηνιου. They are a genitive absolute construction. The word ἡγεμονευοντος is the genitive singular masculine of the present participle of ἡγεμονευω, "to rule", "to govern", so literally it means "ruling". This verb happens to have its direct object in the genitive case too; that object is της Συριας, i.e., Syria (της is the genitive singular feminine of the definite article "the"). The last word, Κυρηνιου, is the genitive singular of Κυρηνιος, the Greek transcription of the name Quirinius. So the whole construct means "Quirinius ruling over Syria". A genitive absolute construct is called "absolute" because it stands "loose", it is independent grammatically, of the rest of the sentence. It is typically translated as a subordinate clause, with simply a temporal relation ("while", "when") or a causal relation ("because") or a concessive relation ("although") or whatever the translator deems appropriate. The fact that the participle employed here is a present participle means that the action in the genitive absolute construction is contemporaneous with the action in the main clause.

So, all in all, my translation is: "This census was the first, while Quirinius ruled over Syria".

Now, I don't see any mention in this sentence of two censuses as your favourite apologists contend, but I'll give you some rope to hang yourself with. Some scholars claim that the NT writers now and then employed a superlative (here: πρωτη, "earliest") when they actually meant a comparative (which would be προτερη, "earlier"). In case of a comparative there has to be a thing you compare it with, say: "Peter is taller than Paul". You can't just say "Peter is taller". That (the italicized part) can be expressed in two ways in Greek: (1) the word ἠ stands for "than" and the actual thing is in the same case as the thing we compare it with, or (2) the thing we compare it with is put in the genitive case.

Now, obviously the word ἠ is absent; and the genitive construction doesn't work either IMHO: firstly, the verb ἐγενετο is placed in between which makes this unlikely to have been the idea (Greek word order is not that free); and secondly, the genitives are there for a genitive absolute, not for a comparative.

And even if you were able to convince me of such a translation, there are also historical reasons why this doesn't work.

A census in Judea around 4 BC is right out, for several reasons. Herod reigned over Judea, and the finances of Judea was not the Romans' worry. They had an agreement with Herod how much tax he had to turn over and it was his business how to get that. There was no need for the Romans to mandate he conduct a census, and still, then it would have been Herod's census and not Quirinius' c.q. Augustus' census.

Varus was the governor over Syria in the last years of Herod's reign. Even in your fantastic scenario of a Roman census in that time, Quirinius would have been a subordinate. The Greek text of Luke 2:2 however is very clear:
ἡγεμονευοντος της Συριας Κυρηνιου
which means "while Quirinius reigned over Syria". The use of the verb ἡγεμονεω leaves open a subordinate position, however, της Συριας is a direct object (in the genitive) and precludes anything but him being the boss - otherwise, Luke would have written ἐν τῃ Συριᾳ ("in Syria"). But we're here already in the realm of fantasy, as noted above.

But to put your last fantastical delusions to an end: if you're going to argue Quirinius may have been governor of Syria after Varus, then this is the first instance we know that the same man had been governor twice of the same Roman province. Surely Josephus, Tacitus or any other Roman historian would have told us.

Also if Luke wanted to make up a story of how Joseph and Mary got to Bethlehem why make up a story that can be challenged by all the people of that time (that doesn't make sense). Why not just make up a story that can't be challenged. He could say something like the dead Joseph wanted to visit his hometown, or he wanted to have the child in the place he was born. Why go through all the trouble of bringing in historical people and events into made up story where it can be challenged, that doesn't make sense to do that.
Your posts here are a testament to the gullibility of the general populace to take any story they're told at face value. Skeptics who critically engage a story were in the minority then as well as now. Most of Luke's readers were not in the position to challenge the story. They didn't have Wikipedia to look up that there's actually a gap of 10 years between Herod's death and Quirinius' tenure. They couldn't check the claim that Joseph had to travel for a census. However, there's a definite advantage to Luke's story - from a Christian perspective. After the Jewish Revolt, Jews were looked upon with suspicion by Romans. The early Christians had to disambiguate their cult from the Jews. There also was the story (per Josephus) of the revolt of Judas the Galilee as a reaction to Quirinius' census. Having Joseph be an obedient Roman subject, willing to make an arduous journey with his highly pregnant wife paints Christians as law-abiding Roman subjects from the outset.

I hope you come around answering it this time. Maybe your pastor tomorrow can give you some guidance. :rolleyes: Oh, plus the follow-up questions:

And three simple questions to you, DOC:

1) do you know Koine Greek?

2) do you plan on learning Koine Greek?

3) why not?
 
I'll answer this when you agree this is a religious question and not a historical question and questions like these should be in the religious section.

So you're saying there was no historical Jesus?

DOC, in this thread of phelix's that you've now littered with your crap about Ehrman's book, can you tell me which page Ehrman says that Jesus is the Christ, the son of god or any of that magical nonsense?

Is there a reason, other than dishonesty, that would keep you from answering?
 
How do you know it wasn't from him? And if it wasn't don't you believe a well known author would approve the text in big bold letters in his own books jacket.

ETA

Page 173 of Ehrman's book cited earlier

"Jesus certainly existed."

There were two people using the word "Nazareth" above. Some guy who wrote a blurb for Ehrman's book, and DOC.

Care to try again?

I don't remember ever saying Ehrman said Jesus was from Nazareth, I said his book says in big bold print in its jacket: Yes, Jesus of Nazareth did exist. And I said Ehrman said "Jesus certainly existed" on page 173.

I'll answer this when you agree this is a religious question and not a historical question and questions like these should be in the religious section.

Your dishonest weasel words are highlighted.


So when I asked you whether Ehrman really says that Jesus was FROM NAZARETH, you don't remember your answer? I really wanted to know. That's why I asked!!!

Refresh our memory:

a - He doesn't say that Jesus was FROM NAZARETH.
b - Ehrman says that Jesus was FROM NAZARETH on page ___.
c - DOC doesn't know, because he hasn't read the book.

Seriously, just be honest for once. Thanks.
 
Who in here disagrees with Bart Ehrman and most other biblical scholars and believes the Jesus of Nazareth never existed?

Do you disagree with Bart Ehrman and New Testament Scholar, theologian, philosopher, concert organist, physician, humanitarian, and Nobel Peace Prize-winning Albert Schweitzer, that "the Jesus proclaimed by preachers and theologians today had no existence"?
 
Felix,
Nice thread mate, DOC could learn a thing or two from you and your thread style. It reminds me of Aberhaten's thread about 'fulfilled prophecy'.

DOC, do you finally understand that Ehrman's book is about a Jesus and not the Jesus you wish it were about?
 
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DOC, do you finally understand that Ehrman's book is about a Jesus and not the Jesus you wish it were about?

I think DOC's argument here exposes more about his own doubts.
He has used this to support the idea that Jesus did exist, as though this was a big win for him.

The only way it is a big win is if he himself thought that there were very poor evidence for jesus' existence.
 
I have access to the book, and I have spent about a half hour so far skimming it. Just from that short time it seems most of the book is Ehrman giving facts as to why he believes the historical Jesus existed.
Perhaps you should actually read the book? Not just skim it for bits you can distory or quote mine to support your opinions.

Some one in here said on the first page (which I currently can't get on for some reason) that I basically say the Resurrection is true because the bible said so. I've never said the Resurrection is true because the bible said so, but I have presented sites like the one below to give rational reasons to believe it happened.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
There is not one single reason in that collection of rubbish to accept the "resurrection" of your godling.
Don't forget Ehrman, who you're so eager to quote when it suits you, doesn't accept the resurrection.

I read that too. Perhaps Doc should actually read the links that he provides.
Why change his usual MO?

You mean the Roman Empire where numerous Mystery Cults, most of which involved elements nearly identical to Christianity, were springing up all over the place? The Roman Empire which was seeing its state religion slowly being replaced by far more individualistic cults? That Roman Empire?
Actually Ehrman covers the Mystery Cults and their relationship to xianity in his books. DOC might know this if he actually read them.

But according to the Gospels (written by such people as respected historian Luke, and which Ehrman says is part of the historical record) <snip>
No that tired lie again.

Welcome to DOCworld.
I think I'd like to leave please. :(
 
I've moved all the forum-process related posts off to AAH. If anyone has any real desire to discuss the topic raised in them, PM me and I'll move them to Forum Management instead. In the future, if you have a question on the topic of Forum Management either start a thread about it (with the appropriate links) in Forum Management Feedback or you can PM me and I'll gladly answer your questions.

And, as always, keep it on topic, keep it civil and the topic is not the other posters.

Thank you. Have a pleasant tomorrow.

-Kmo
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
Right, I'm trying to get caught up: is DOC saying that Bart Ehrman has provided evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth? Where am I? What thread am I in? Have any prophecies been fulfilled?

I'm confused and frightened.
Nope. Ehrman still accepts most of the NT is made up nonsense.

But according to the Gospels (Written by such known fabricators as Luke, who A Dominican Priest stated that he made up the nativity story) Jesus would go nuts about fig trees being out of season and condoned slavery.

So I'm not sure what any of this is to mean?
DOC's reached the end of his collection of snippets and is repeating himself. Expect a return visit from Ramsey soon.

He's not really. He's a curious beast, really.

On one hand, he IS one of the most accessible sources of good scholarship for the NT, and even manages to make a coherent case for why as a historian he can't take the miracles as real. So, kudos for that.

It's only the EXISTENCE of a mundane and uninteresting Yeshua Ben Yosef that Bart Ehrman goes into dada territory, and starts rabidly pulling every single fallacy in the book to "support" it. From appeals to authority to some pretty lame ad-hominems to every kind of circular logic, mis-representation, arguments from personal incredulity, and plain old ass-pulls, give him enough time, and he'll do it, if it's about the EXISTENCE of a mundane Jesus.

I.e., strangely enough that whole historian persona goes out the window, and he does start acting exactly like an apologist, when it comes to the question of existence.

I could wonder WHY he does that, but ultimately that's irrelevant, really. All that matters is whether he has good data to support that existence or not. And clearly he doesn't.

I think he's scared of the idea that the subject of his expertise and life's work was a fable, though that's mostly just the impression I get from his latest book and his defense of it against criticism.

In fact, the funny part is that he's the best at demolishing his own position. Every single argument he uses about the unreliability of the evidence of miracles, can be applied verbatim to show why the same sources are utterly unreliable when it comes to proving the existence.

In fact, to give credit where credit is due, kudos to Bart Ehrman, he's done more than everyone else combined to convince me that a historical Jesus probably DIDN'T exist. I mean, kudos to Richard Carrier and Robert Price and all the others too, but before I even heard of those, it was Ehrman that answered my question about exactly how much I can trust those NT sources, and he argues very convincingly that they're not worth much.

So that being the case, whether or not he then chooses to still believe in a Jesus he just proved to be unsupportable, is fully irrelevant, really. An argument from "but Bart Ehrman still believes that Jesus existed" is really still an argument from authority. And if not only he doesn't have any good evidence, but he just told you himself what's wrong with the evidence, then who cares what he chooses to believe without evidence?
The criticism of his book goes into great detail about his double standard and dubious scholarship.

I have a feeling the apostle Peter (who probably knew a thing or two about the historical Jesus after 3 years of traveling with him) wasn't fabricating things in Rome where he went to preach.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633
Except your idea of "Peter" is a myth.

That rabbit doesn't look very rebbeshche. :)

Vs. the billions of people who like bananas, the best fruit ever according to some sources.
Bad, bad sources.
 
Price is a bit of a nutty xian indeed. And an AGW denier IIRC. His "A History of Scholarly Refutations of the Jesus Myth" gets torn apart here by Doherty

For the record, Ehrman states categorically in his book:
But that doesn't support DOC's case, you'd hardly expect him to accept it?
:rolleyes:
<much snippage>
Why not try thinking for yourself? Sumarise Ehrman's arguments and the evidence for them................

But he believes the person known as Jesus of Nazareth (aka Jesus Christ) certainly existed. He might not believe he is divine but he certainly believes he existed in the flesh and blood. He even stated there are solid reasons to believe this historical person was betrayed by Judas. He says that on page 328.
Opinions aren't worth much, what evidence is there for this?

Excuse me, I said earlier Ehrman's book was about 37.00, actually in the US it is $26.99.
Then why not buy a copy? Scared of his scholarship?

I gave a link in post #1333 for the thread "It is quite certain Peter spent his last years in Rome"
Perhaps you should actually read what you link to?
 
Who in here disagrees with Bart Ehrman and most other biblical scholars and believes the Jesus of Nazareth never existed? And why do you feel that way?
Unlike you I've actually read Ehrman's book and I can see how weak his case is. There is no significant evidence that the core figure of xianity ever existed as a physical being. It's more likely that the biblical "Jesus" is a composite of a number of messianical and other preachers, various older myths and a lot of sheer invention.
 
Unlike you I've actually read Ehrman's book and I can see how weak his case is. There is no significant evidence that the core figure of xianity ever existed as a physical being. It's more likely that the biblical "Jesus" is a composite of a number of messianical and other preachers, various older myths and a lot of sheer invention.

To be fair though, there is nothing illogical or unsupportable about an intenerant preacher named Jesus (or the local variant) existing at the time that later had legends draped upon. While I haven't read the book in question, I've read two of Ehrman's other books and that's what it seemed to me to be his postion. Whether the sources of the legends came from other preachers, other myths or just made up out of whole cloth can be discussed endlessly, but to say categorically that there was no one named Jesus at the time isn't supported.
 
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