Burka Bounty Introduced in Belgium

[JJM 777]

So they declared an all-out war on burka. I believe that declaring an all-out war on burka leads to a better future for these women than quietly tolerating the burka.

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If you believe that burka is "a choice of personal religious conscience", it would not be nice or peaceful or recommendable to declare such a war on it.

But if you believe that burka is social repression of women, it would be understandable to declare a war against it on all fronts and at all costs. On second thought, I believe the latter to be closer to reality.

 

[dasmiller]

If you believe that burka is "a choice of personal religious conscience", it would not be nice or peaceful or recommendable to declare such a war on it.

But if you believe that burka is social repression of women, it would be understandable to declare a war against it on all fronts and at all costs. On second thought, I believe the latter to be closer to reality.

If you believe that the burka itself is the problem, then yes. If you believe that it's merely a symptom or a marker for a problem, then making burkas illegal may be no more reasonable (or successful) than trying to end heart attacks by making angina illegal.

(yeah, it's not a perfect analogy)

 

[Horatius]

But if you believe that burka is social repression of women, it would be understandable to declare a war against it on all fronts and at all costs. On second thought, I believe the latter to be closer to reality.

Yes, but if you think this, then why are you arresting and fining the women who are wearing the burkas? Why not fine their husbands, fathers or Imams, instead?

 

[ddt]

Yeah, that's the weakest part of the plan. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that their mouths were bigger than their wallets.

But by god, it would be fun to screw with them!

Correction to my previous post: this offer is not extended by the right-extremist party Vlaams Belang, but by the organisation Cities against Islamisation. Filip Dewinter is leader of both. From that link:

Filip Dewinter gives 250 euros for each spotted Burqa
<snip>
This is not Vlaams Belang action?
Filip Dewinter: "Indeed. This action comes from "Cities against Islamisation", an organization for which I am the president and that wants to stop Islamization."

From that wording, it seems that both the organisation and Dewinter personally would be liable for the money. Dewinter is both PM in the Flemish Parliament and City Councillor of Antwerp. He must earn enough to be able to pay.

 

[Dcdrac]

Fact it was dying out among ethnic minority communties in the uK at least until such a fuss was made about it as soon as it was attacked, it becauem a cause celebre, left on its own it would have faded away

And where does it end , giving the state the power to control what a tiny minority wear what eve pwoers will they grab under a similar pretext?

 

[mikedenk]

Yes, but if you think this, then why are you arresting and fining the women who are wearing the burkas? Why not fine their husbands, fathers or Imams, instead?

I would guess that a woman who wears a burqa either stays at home or hands over any income she makes to her husband/father... so the male would be on the hook for the fine regardless.

Fact it was dying out among ethnic minority communties in the uK at least until such a fuss was made about it as soon as it was attacked, it becauem a cause celebre, left on its own it would have faded away

And where does it end , giving the state the power to control what a tiny minority wear what eve pwoers will they grab under a similar pretext?

Good post.

 

[Horatius]

I would guess that a woman who wears a burqa either stays at home or hands over any income she makes to her husband/father... so the male would be on the hook for the fine regardless.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but in either case, she's still the one being stopped by the police, and at least in this case, "scuffling" with officers. And if they keep records of such things, she's also the one who will have her name on those records.

So it still negatively impacts the person they're nominally trying to "save" more than it does those who they're trying to "save" her from.

 

[Aepervius]

I do not think a person should be able to get a license (driving/passport, /security) without a face photo. That said, this is crap-level stupid.

I see that coming from the other side. I don't see why some people because of their religion should have right *above* the one granted to the average citizen.

In many country you may not wear a face mask in normal circumstance (usually some global authorisation are in effect during carnival and the like, or the law may be more or less permissive, for example some country disallow mask wearing during a public manifestation). As such there is no reason whatsoever niqab or burka may be allowed for those suddenly out of "tolerance" for the religion.

Either allow everybody to be fully masked , or allow none.

That said the way some political party use and abuse of that particular debate disgust me.

 

[I Ratant]

Whoa. Eve's showing a little foot there. Hubba, Hubba!

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The stoning wasn't public.

 

[I Ratant]

Yes, but if you think this, then why are you arresting and fining the women who are wearing the burkas? Why not fine their husbands, fathers or Imams, instead?

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Yesterday I was cell-phone-photod by a former hijab wearing woman, who -works- at the Mall.. and wears long pants... She's a salesperson.
I buy some stuff from the shop she and her husband run.
There's several like her there, that first showed up with the hijab and all concealing robes...but now look like everyday Western women, because THEY CAN!

 

[Modified]

Wearing a mask in public is illegal here by local ordinance, and people have been arrested/fined for it (usually after being asked and refusing to remove masks). The issue is that someone walking around in a mask may intending to commit a robbery. Exceptions are made for Halloween, parades, etc.

 

[I Ratant]

I've seen only one extraordinarily beautiful black woman wearing a scarf and concealing robe at the Mall.
Haven't seen a burqa yet.
I wonder if there would be a commotion if someone did show up there in one.
One thing about that scarf, it does focus the interest to the face.

 

[fuelair]

What, you can't tell Miriam and Salome and Eve from Sam in the family photo?
(Sam is the cross dresser.)

I would think that if Sam wore a cross he would be in a tad of trouble there.........

 

[Ladewig]

So they declared an all-out war on burka. I believe that declaring an all-out war on burka leads to a better future for these women than quietly tolerating the burka.

---

If you believe that burka is "a choice of personal religious conscience", it would not be nice or peaceful or recommendable to declare such a war on it.

But if you believe that burka is social repression of women, it would be understandable to declare a war against it on all fronts and at all costs. On second thought, I believe the latter to be closer to reality.

I believe it is social repression, but I am pretty confident that the Islamic fundies will respond by locking up their women and never letting them out of the house. So, the law doesn't really help the people being repressed.

 

[Flo]

So they declared an all-out war on burka. I believe that declaring an all-out war on burka leads to a better future for these women than quietly tolerating the burka.

---

If you believe that burka is "a choice of personal religious conscience", it would not be nice or peaceful or recommendable to declare such a war on it.

But if you believe that burka is social repression of women, it would be understandable to declare a war against it on all fronts and at all costs. On second thought, I believe the latter to be closer to reality.

Several polls in French media* have shown that the number of men who "force" their wives to wear it is surprisingly small, as is the number of religious leaders who pretend that women should wear it.

It has also shown that the vast majority of burka/hijab wearer are rather young, often unmarried, women who have decided on their own to wear it as a distinctive sign of their religious views, and as a sort of "rebellion" against society at large, and who are not so much different in their psychology from girls of the same age who turn "gothic" or heavily tattooed/pierced.

Several proeminent figures in the French muslim world have remarked that most of those girls acted like cults members, who wanted to be distinct and "better believers" than the mass of the other muslims ...

So, make sure this trend isn't recuperated by radical leaders, yes, by all means. Declare war, a bit too much, in my mind.


* I listen to some radio stations like France Culture or France Inter, and watch tv shows on "Arte" or "La 5", who often hold excellent debates on such themes.

 

[JJM 777]

Yes, but if you think this, then why are you arresting and fining the women who are wearing the burkas? Why not fine their husbands, fathers or Imams, instead?

Uhm, ehh, a good point.

 

[Damien Evans]

Most western nations don't have a consitution that creates a government, granting it certain, listed, specific powers and none others.

Most start from a vox populi vox dei parliament, with the presumption a government exists and that all powers under the sun are available to it, subject only to purely democratic dictates and the attendant blowing political winds of passion.

 

[Beerina]

Fact it was dying out among ethnic minority communties in the uK at least until such a fuss was made about it as soon as it was attacked, it becauem a cause celebre, left on its own it would have faded away

And where does it end , giving the state the power to control what a tiny minority wear what eve pwoers will they grab under a similar pretext?

In Freakonomics, they detail a guy who eviscerated the KKK by mocking it's rituals by simply exposing them to the public. Over the course of several decades he turned it into little more than a good old boys' knitting-and-bitching club.


Freedom of speech works, but not in the way people necessarily think. Keep that in mind the next time you wanna pass laws to tell people how to think.

 

[Beerina]

Most western nations don't have a consitution that creates a government, granting it certain, listed, specific powers and none others.

Most start from a vox populi vox dei parliament, with the presumption a government exists and that all powers under the sun are available to it, subject only to purely democratic dictates and the attendant blowing political winds of passion.

Was my description in any way, shape, or form inaccurate or irrelevant to this discussion?

Is not the burka issue the result of the blowing political winds of passion in an unrestricted vox populi vox dei parliamentary system? And that that is the problem here?

People dance around the issue, should it be done, rather than question whether restriction of religion by government is even a proper thing for government to be involved with.

 

[I Ratant]

I would think that if Sam wore a cross he would be in a tad of trouble there.........

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In school... Catholic University, a salesperson in the book store wore a very prominent crucifix.
I saw him later in another bookstore not affiliated... no crucifix.