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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
In the past I've cited that < ... > the Red Cross of that time said there was no genocide against Jewish people going on in the camps.
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No, this is a lie.

You have *suggested* the Red Cross said this, but have never *cited* them as saying anything of the sort.

Which, of course, is because they did not.

But with all your whining about lies, it you exempt yourself and feel free to post them. You also avoid even suggesting that other deniers have lied -- these lies are objectively demonstrable, as opposed to your "I don't want to believe it, so it never happened".

And even if you weren't posting a lie here, and there was no genocide *in the camps*, you consistently ignore the fact that at least half of the Holocaust did not take place in camps -- it took place in ghettos and villages all over Eastern Europe.

Such is the state of the art in denier "scholarship".

"Der Führer hat den Befehl zur physischen Vernichtung der Juden gegeben."

Deal with it.
 
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nomuse said:
For the highly-placed Allies, even if they had better intelligence -- even if they had clear and unimpeachable evidence of exactly what was happening at Treblinka -- they could not afford to admit it just yet.
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No. The big three, Ike, Winnie and de Gaulle didn't mention the gas chambers in their writings after the war trials because they didn't want to be branded in history as liars. The brave, unarmed, neutral IRC stated there was no genocide by Germany.

I'll believe them before I'd believe the absurd tales of atrocities quoted on this thread.
 
TSR said:
No, this is a lie.

You have *suggested* the Red Cross said this, but have never *cited* them as saying anything of the sort.

Which, of course, is because they did not.

But with all your whining about lies, it you exempt yourself and feel free to post them. You also avoid even suggesting that other deniers have lied -- these lies are objectively demonstrable, as opposed to your "I don't want to believe it, so it never happened".

And even if you weren't posting a lie here, and there was no genocide *in the camps*, you consistently ignore the fact that at least half of the Holocaust did not take place in camps -- it took place in ghettos and villages all over Eastern Europe.

Such is the state of the art in denier "scholarship".

"Der Führer hat den Befehl zur physischen Vernichtung der Juden gegeben."

Deal with it.
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http://www.rense.com/general69/factua.htm
In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day. So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps (Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).
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Churchill was not concerned how history would judge him.

He intended to write history. (And made good on his intention)
 
 
Despite the grave hardships, life in the Warsaw Ghetto was rich with educational and cultural activities, conducted by its underground organizations. Hospitals, public soup kitchens, orphanages, refugee centers and recreation facilities were formed, as well as a school system. Some schools were illegal and operated under the guise of a soup kitchen. There were secret libraries, classes for the children and even a symphony orchestra.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto
 
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto
Despite the grave hardships,
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And why were there hardships, CM?

What had each of those people done to deserve being forced from their homes and jobs into a place where
thousands of Polish Jews as well as some Romani people from smaller cities and the countryside were brought into the Ghetto, while diseases (especially typhus) and starvation kept the inhabitants at about the same number. Average food rations in 1941 for Jews in Warsaw were limited to 184 calories, compared to 699 calories for gentile Poles and 2,613 calories for Germans.
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Clayton Moore said:

27-01-2005 Statement
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Which is both more recent and more contemporary than your citation from the ICRC, given that you *still* have not made one.

But here is a secondary source for you:

"The Report excerpt is reproduced in full here because it is written in such a way that it is difficult to cite on specific points without risking the possibility of being accused of distorting meaning. This will be more clear after the reading:

VI. Special Categories of Civilians

(A). JEWS

Under National Socialism the Jews had become in truth outcasts, condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution and systematic extermination. No kind of protection shielded them; being neither PW nor civilian internees, they formed a separate category, without the benefit of any Convention. The supervision which the ICRC was empowered to exercise in favour of prisoners and internees did not apply to them. In most cases, they were, in fact, nationals of the State which held them in its power and which, secure in its supreme authority, allowed no intervention in their behalf. These unfortunate citizens shared the same fate as political deportees, were deprived of civil rights, were given less favoured treatment than enemy nationals, who at least had the benefit of a statute. They were penned into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labour, subjected to grave brutalities and sent to death camps, without anyone being allowed to intervene in those matters which Germany and her allies considered to be exclusively within the bounds of their home policy.
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Emphasis mine.

Rense is only correct in that the Red Cross reported about sanitary installations, but dishonest because they do not mention that the Red Cross were unable to inspect most camps, and even most buildings in most camps.

I've stayed at the Holiday Inn in Huntsville Texas, and have driven by Johnson Farm. Does this mean that they don't kill prisoners in The Walls?

The ICRC has never mentioned the Arizona Department of Corrections in any report. Does this mean that Walter LaGrand is still alive somewhere?
 
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Clayton Moore said:

27-01-2005 Statement
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Echo. Rense is not the way to spell Red Cross. You've been asked repeatedly about your choice of websites. In light of your slander dodge I'm asking again - do you agree with the content of sites like that or not?

You've been asked repeatedly to create a timeline as well. How do the first English edition from 1954 and his new Preface written for the re-release in 1988 of Human Behavior in the Concentrationcamps by Dr. E.A. Cohen fit your timeline and narrative, Clayton Moore?

In the chapter about Gas Chambers Cohen wrote: "Extermination camps differed from other concentration camps in that large numbers of people were killed there by means of poison gas. This is not to say that in other camps no people were gassed. Haefliger was told by a prisoner who had worked in the crematory of the concentration camp Mauthausen: "In February (1943) people were first being gassed in a sham show bath ..."

In a footnote Cohen wrote: "Haestiger is a Swiss citizen who, at the end of April 1945 was assigned by the International Red Cross "to take nineteen trucks with food gift parcels to one of the most notorious of all concentration camps , Mauthausen, ..."
Cohen gives as source Gagern F. von. Der Retter von Mauthausen, Vienna 1948.

Rense misrepresents the ICRC and any lurker who does a cursory search for ICRC during the Holocaust with Google should be able to find corrections of those. Why don't you post those corrections, Clayton Moore?
 
TSR said:
I was just reminded of one of my favourite self-goals of probably the most famous denier of all, the distorian David Irving.

He was speaking at the Eleventh IHR Conference in October 1992 (which transcript is available from the ironically named CODOH) about the Eichmann memoirs, in which Eichmann relates a conversation with Reinhard Heydrich, in which the latter states "The Führer has given the order for the physical destruction of the Jews (Der Führer hat den Befehl zur physischen Vernichtung der Juden gegeben.)" Which of course, completely trashes Irving's thesis that if something bad happened to the Jews, Hitler was not aware. Face with this fatal flaw, does Irving admit the Hitler knew?

No.

He states "Well, if we look just at that sentence, we can say that you've only got to change one or two words and you get a completely different meaning."

That change being that it was actually an order for "die Ausrottung des Judentums" -- Judaism, not Jews.

Never mind that "changing just one or two words" in primary sources is not what real historians *do*.
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Deniers do change words though, as I've witnessed myself in debate with them, having someone called HerbivorousMoose "supply" an extra word in Felix Landau's diary to make it say what he wanted.

As to National Socialism's conceptualization of the Jewish problem and solution, the Fuhrer himself spoke in the 1920s to the false distinction raised by Irving, declaring,
We knew . . . that the battle against Jewry could not be fought only against the race as such, but also against its living manifestation, individual persons.
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[Speech reestablishing the NSDAP, Munich Burgerbraukeller, 27 February 1925]
 
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Clayton Moore said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto
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Cherrypicked and pointlessly so, as the full Wikipedia entry is easily checked. Under the heading on Conditions here is what you will find this morning:
During the next year and a half, thousands of Polish Jews as well as some Romani people from smaller cities and the countryside were brought into the Ghetto, while diseases (especially typhus),[10] and starvation kept the inhabitants at about the same number. Average food rations in 1941 for Jews in Warsaw were limited to 184 calories, compared to 699 calories for gentile Poles and 2,613 calories for Germans.[11]

Unemployment was a major problem in the ghetto. Illegal workshops were created to manufacture goods to be sold illegally on the outside and raw goods were smuggled in, often by children. Hundreds of four to five year old Jewish children went across en masse to the "Aryan side," sometimes several times a day, smuggling food into the ghettos, returning with goods that often weighed more than they did. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for Ghetto inhabitants, who would otherwise have died of starvation.

Despite the grave hardships, life in the Warsaw Ghetto was rich with educational and cultural activities, conducted by its underground organizations. Hospitals, public soup kitchens, orphanages, refugee centers and recreation facilities were formed, as well as a school system. Some schools were illegal and operated under the guise of a soup kitchen. There were secret libraries, classes for the children and even a symphony orchestra.

Over 100,000 of the Ghetto's residents died due to rampant disease or starvation, as well as random killings, even before the Nazis began massive deportations of the inhabitants from the Ghetto's Umschlagplatz to the Treblinka extermination camp during the Grossaktion Warschau, part of the countrywide Operation Reinhard. Between Tisha B'Av (July 23) and Yom Kippur (September 21) of 1942, about 254,000 Ghetto residents (or at least 300,000 by different accounts)[5] were sent to Treblinka and murdered there.[12]

Polish resistance officer Jan Karski reported to the Western governments in 1942 on the situation in the Ghetto and on the extermination camps. By the end of 1942, it was clear that the deportations were to their deaths, and many of the remaining Jews decided to fight.[5]

For years, Ghetto residents in the group Oyneg Shabbos had discreetly chronicled conditions and hid their photos, writings, and short films in improvised time capsules; their activity increased after learning that transports to "resettlement" actually led to the mass killings. In May 1942, Germans began filming a propaganda movie titled "Das Ghetto" which was never completed. Footage is shown in the 2010 documentary called "A Film Unfinished" which concerns the making of "Das Ghetto" and correlates scenes from 'Das Ghetto' with descriptions of the filming of these scenes that Czerniakow mentions in his diary.
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Still, the paragraph Clayton snips from Wikipedia should raise the question in the minds of sentient beings why in the first place the cultural, social welfare, and educational outlets and supports that did exist had to be organized and offered by the inmates themselves - and then why there were indeed inmates in ghettos formed by the German authorities at all. What the paragraph Clayton quoted is about is forms of resistance to the Nazi rule over the ghetto, taken at risk by activists and ordinary inmates. There were, of course, other ways inmates resisted - escape to the "Aryan" side of the city, smuggling to ensure a food supply, underground medical work, armed rebellion, creation of an illegal press, and so on. After the Great Deportation of approximately 300,000 of Warsaw's Jews to Treblinka, and the incarceration of the officially remaining 35,000 plus in forced labor in workshops, the kinds of activities cited in the Wikipedia article disappeared, as Nazi rule tightened.

Rather than cherrypicking material he misunderstands, Clayton might read something that deals in depth with these issues, Nazi terror in the ghetto, the perilous health situation for inmates, their employment and income, what the Nazis permitted to their inmates and denied them, how ghetto inmates responded, and what finally became of those shoved into Warsaw ghetto. Here's a short list of worthwhile studies and sources:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5E...=0CFQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=lewin warsaw&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zh...d=0CEUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=secret city&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=au...a=X&ei=LHTQT5uvA4Ly2QWmyInTDA&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA

http://books.google.com/books?id=-1...onepage&q=engelking guide to perished&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=s4...=0CD4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=chaim kaplan&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jc...gQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=words to outlive&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=TR...a=X&ei=kXTQT8HDGcaW2gWszJnSDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=tp...a=X&ei=enTQT66yB6-62gWy9dCmDA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.com/books?id=ho...&sa=X&ei=7nPQT73THMbY2gWFpeVh&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA
 
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He's not a denier, he's a revisionist. Get it right.

FYI, Clay, dodging the significant posts to respond only to my sarcastic one is just as transparent as your habit of responding to long, sourced posts with one-liners about Team Holocaust that don't actually address their content.
 
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