Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

Let's be clear.

GZ has enough injuries to claim self defense. Debating that is silly.

Whether the rest of his story will hold up remains to be seen, but he clearly has enough injuries to have defended himself with deadly force if his story holds.

Barring something from left field, there's no point in "GZ isn't injured enough" type posts, imo.

The only thing that will make GZ not "injured enough" is the total collapse of the rest of the account, or new evidence that shows the injuries occurred some other way.

Even if GZ started the fight, and chased TM around the compound 11 times, and yelled angrily at TM for 5 minutes, if TM got GZ on the ground at the end, and was beating the crap out of him, GZ can still shoot TM in self defense. There would still be a good chance that GZ would serve no jail time.

 

[Rare Truth]

Not without more information.

Well, it's a cut & dry. He did or he didn't.

POLICE REPORT SAYS: "Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and given first aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department]. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

PARAMEDIC SAYS (when asked if Zimmerman made any statements to him as he was cleaning him up):
NO, he didn't. He was silent.
Q: Did he make any statements at ALL?
A: NO.

Hear it for yourself: BrandyFDLE03272012.wav

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Hard to believe that in a thread in which distrust of the media had been a consistent theme, an unsubstantiated story from a conservative media outlet known for their loose affiliation with the truth would be taken at face value.

Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutor Threatening to Sue Harvard for My Criticism
Tuesday, 05 Jun 2012 05:54 PM
By Alan Dershowitz
What exactly does the particular media outlet have to do with it ?

Is dershowitz a dirty liar like zimmerman ?

 

[GWCarver]

As long as we're on the subject...anybody figure out yet why the paramedics said Zimmerman was quiet and didn't say anything as he was being treated - yet the police report noted Zimmerman said loud enough to be "overheard" as he was being attended that "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

Mysterious, ainnit?

Never mind, I saw the link above.

Do you have a link to show these were simultaneous events? When the paramedics first saw Zimmerman, he was handcuffed in the back of a police car.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, it's a cut & dry. He did or he didn't.

POLICE REPORT SAYS: "Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and given first aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department]. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

PARAMEDIC SAYS (when asked if Zimmerman made any statements to him as he was cleaning him up): NO, he didn't. He was silent.
Q: Did he make any statements at ALL?
A: NO.

Hear it for yourself: BrandyFDLE03272012.wav

Was there more than one medic?

 

[crimresearch]

Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutor Threatening to Sue Harvard for My Criticism
Tuesday, 05 Jun 2012 05:54 PM
By Alan Dershowitz
What exactly does the particular media outlet have to do with it ?

Is dershowitz a dirty liar like zimmerman ?

Probably an obese gangbanger as well.

 

[Cylinder]

As long as we're on the subject...anybody figure out yet why the paramedics said Zimmerman was quiet and didn't say anything as he was being treated - yet the police report noted Zimmerman said loud enough to be "overheard" as he was being attended that "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

Mysterious, ainnit?

Not a particular mystery. When SFD Rescue arrived, Zimmerman was secured and both Smith and Ayala were attempting to resuscitate Martin. SFD assessed Zimmerman first, then Martin. Having pronounced Martin, they returned to treat Zimmerman. I'm guessing the utterance was observed before Zimmerman was treated.

 

[Unabogie]

Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutor Threatening to Sue Harvard for My Criticism
Tuesday, 05 Jun 2012 05:54 PM
By Alan Dershowitz
What exactly does the particular media outlet have to do with it ?

Is dershowitz a dirty liar like zimmerman ?

Dershowitz doesn't claim to have this info first hand, does he? So who told him about this and how do we judge that person's credibility? Oh, we can't because he doesn't tell us who told him or how that person came to know what was said on a phone call.

Anything in writing? Nope. Recording of the call? Nope. Dershowitz heard the call himself? Nope.

So that's enough for you?

 

[GWCarver]

Was there more than one medic?

There were 2. If you follow the link above to the LA paper, they didn't see everything the same way.

Here it is again because it is now on a different page:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517,0,7498893.story

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Well, it's a cut & dry. He did or he didn't.

POLICE REPORT SAYS: "Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and given first aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department]. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

PARAMEDIC SAYS (when asked if Zimmerman made any statements to him as he was cleaning him up):
NO, he didn't. He was silent.
Q: Did he make any statements at ALL?
A: NO.

Hear it for yourself: BrandyFDLE03272012.wav

Yet other paramedics heard him speak ... how ... not mysterious.
http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/LivingstonFDLE03242012.wav

ETA: is typically cut and dried

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, it's a cut & dry. He did or he didn't.

POLICE REPORT SAYS: "Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and given first aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department]. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

PARAMEDIC SAYS (when asked if Zimmerman made any statements to him as he was cleaning him up):
NO, he didn't. He was silent.
Q: Did he make any statements at ALL?
A: NO.

Hear it for yourself: BrandyFDLE03272012.wav

The SFD report in the big pdf file has Zimmerman talking to Brandy...

Pt states etc.
Pt denies etc.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Dershowitz doesn't claim to have this info first hand, does he? So who told him about this and how do we judge that person's credibility? Oh, we can't because he doesn't tell us who told him or how that person came to know what was said on a phone call.

Anything in writing? Nope. Recording of the call? Nope. Dershowitz heard the call himself? Nope.

So that's enough for you?

Is what enough for me ?

Johnny Karate made the case the media outlet was important, so I questioned why. I see you didn't address that part.

As for the rest. Dershowitz isn't on trial, and I have no reason to disbelieve him. He has a professional reputation to maintain, so he does have something to lose by writing articles about his fantasies and calling them reality. I don't have the first clue what, if any, proof he has.

 

[johnny karate]

Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutor Threatening to Sue Harvard for My Criticism
Tuesday, 05 Jun 2012 05:54 PM
By Alan Dershowitz
What exactly does the particular media outlet have to do with it ?

I'm a little confused here, and perhaps that's because I didn't get my handbook that outlines the rules in determining which media reports we can accept uncritically and which we can't.

Because I have been criticized for doing so in the past (even though those reports turned out to be correct):

Was there any doubt he'd instantly embrace the one article that tells the story he wants it to be? I thinks it's entirely possible msnbc got it right...or wrong. Who knows?

Since you believe everything from NBC until you see evidence to the contrary...

... and I don't recall you taking issue with that, and yet now you take issue with me when I point out the double-standard?

Is dershowitz a dirty liar like zimmerman ?

I don't know if Dershowitz is a liar, nor am I accusing him of being one. I am merely pointing out that this is an unsubstantiated secondhand report being accepted uncritically in a thread where I thought such behavior was verboten.

Zimmerman, however, is of course absolutely a liar... but as far as him being dirty... well, I'm sure the jail to which the judge sent him for being a liar allows him occasional access to a shower.

 

[Unabogie]

Is what enough for me ?

Johnny Karate made the case the media outlet was important, so I questioned why. I see you didn't address that part.

As for the rest. Dershowitz isn't on trial, and I have no reason to disbelieve him. He has a professional reputation to maintain, so he does have something to lose by writing articles about his fantasies and calling them reality. I don't have the first clue what, if any, proof he has.

Because I didn't want to take the low hanging fruit, which is that NewsMax is the Globe for wingnuts.

On the substance, I think JK has a good response above. Personally, I see no reason to buy this story, since there's nothing to buy. It's second hand gossip with no supporting evidence. In other words, let's take it uncritically and accept it at face value, like watermelon lean, right?

 

[johnny karate]

Is what enough for me ?

Johnny Karate made the case the media outlet was important, so I questioned why. I see you didn't address that part.

No, I made the case that an unsubstantiated secondhand report was being accepted uncritically. That the media outlet from which it came is untrustworthy was merely an aspect of that case.

As for the rest. Dershowitz isn't on trial, and I have no reason to disbelieve him.

What about the mystery person from whom he got his information? Do you have any reason to disbelieve them?

He has a professional reputation to maintain, so he does have something to lose by writing articles about his fantasies and calling them reality. I don't have the first clue what, if any, proof he has.

And for some in this thread, apparently he doesn't need any.

 

[Rare Truth]

Not a particular mystery. When SFD Rescue arrived, Zimmerman was secured and both Smith and Ayala were attempting to resuscitate Martin. SFD assessed Zimmerman first, then Martin. Having pronounced Martin, they returned to treat Zimmerman. I'm guessing the utterance was observed before Zimmerman was treated.

Yeah. That's not the way it went down. They all state they went to the Gunshot Victim first.

 

[Rare Truth]

Yet other paramedics heard him speak ... how ... not mysterious.
http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/LivingstonFDLE03242012.wav

ETA: is typically cut and dried

Not about how it happened. Certainly they did not hear what the officer stated he "overheard" "while Z was being treated" in his police report.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Hard to believe that in a thread in which distrust of the media had been a consistent theme, an unsubstantiated story from a conservative media outlet known for their loose affiliation with the truth would be taken at face value.

I'm a little confused here, and perhaps that's because I didn't get my handbook that outlines the rules in determining which media reports we can accept uncritically and which we can't.
[...]

It's not a media report, it's an article/essay/whatever by Alan Dershowtiz.

No, I made the case that an unsubstantiated secondhand report was being accepted uncritically. That the media outlet from which it came is untrustworthy was merely an aspect of that case.

I highlighted the parts about the media source in your claim. Seems like an important aspect. Why is it an aspect at all when the primary source is Alan Dershowitz ? Please explain.

What about the mystery person from whom he got his information? Do you have any reason to disbelieve them?

And for some in this thread, apparently he doesn't need any.

So, you are not calling Dershowtiz a liar, you just don't believe what he says ? Or, the person who told Dershowitz that this all happened is the liar, because they thought lying to him would advance their career. Hmm. Lots of theories to consider.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...lan-dershowitz-murder-charge-sanford-shooting

Asked about the Newsmax column today, a Corey spokeswoman said "we're not going to comment about that."

Dershowitz's post doesn't say when exactly Corey's call occurred. A Harvard Law School spokeswoman didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.

So, a non-denial. If it was all horrendous lies, why not deny it ?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Let's be clear.

GZ has enough injuries to claim self defense. Debating that is silly.

So you don't mind the idea you can kill anyone who hits you? And that includes someone who hits you after you threatened them?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Well, it's a cut & dry. He did or he didn't.

POLICE REPORT SAYS: "Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and given first aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department]. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

PARAMEDIC SAYS (when asked if Zimmerman made any statements to him as he was cleaning him up):
NO, he didn't. He was silent.
Q: Did he make any statements at ALL? A: NO.
Hear it for yourself: BrandyFDLE03272012.wav

Not about how it happened. Certainly they did not hear what the officer stated he "overheard" "while Z was being treated" in his police report.

The paramedic was wrong. We know GZ made statements.
Since he [paramedic] didn't hear the other statements we know GZ made, it's clear he didn't hear or was simply mistaken about not hearing the one the LEO overheard.

Glad I could clear that up for you.