Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

You know, this quote is repeated by TM supporters and anti-Zimmerman zealots around the internet, and it is quoted with a straight face, as if this isn't one of the most common "cuss words" in the English language and is used by millions of people daily do describe anyone who someone finds annoying. Most of us are lucky it isn't allowed here.

I would say anyone who has to resort to using this quote in his argument has a very weak argument, indeed.

I used that quote in response to an argument that Zimmerman was a "good citizen" who would just stand by and let the police do their job.

I was specifically asked the question "Why should it have been any different this time?". Thus the quote.

As other posters have noted, it goes to Zimmerman's state of mind, and quite clearly wasn't used to argue he is some villainous monster because he said a bad word.

 

[Unabogie]

I can basically agree with those sentiments. Your next paragraph though ....

There is no account where he caught up to TM. Some witness may have heard loud voices, but had no clue what the actual words are, or who was saying what. And that's assuming the story doesn't change again. Who spoke first ? TM ? What was his tone ? Loud and Barking ? How do you know ?

Yes there is. In DeeDee's account, Trayvon specifically said that after losing George, George had caught up with him again and was getting closer. Are we back to arguing semantics again? "Caught up with him" vs "somehow got close enough to speak but didn't actually cause this proximity?"

DeeDee heard Trayvon talking about trying to evade George. There's nothing to refute that. There's only the word of a proven violent, dishonest man that somehow Trayvon told DeeDee he was trying to run away from George while secretly plotting his MMA surprise attack.

DeeDee heard Zimmerman say, in an angry voice, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE". Another witness heard a loud man, who was not the voice screaming later, who sounded "aggressive".

I don't know who spoke first, but we do know that George left his car, Trayvon ran to avoid him, and then told the only witness who isn't dead or George himself, that George had continued following him and had found him again.

 

[Noztradamus]

You know, this quote is repeated by TM supporters and anti-Zimmerman zealots around the internet, and it is quoted with a straight face, as if this isn't one of the most common "cuss words" in the English language and is used by millions of people daily do describe anyone who someone finds annoying. Most of us are lucky it isn't allowed here.

I would say anyone who has to resort to using this quote in his argument has a very weak argument, indeed.

It's the vibe of the thing

 

[Mumbles]

TM might have made the first aggressive move while GZ was in the vehicle.

So, Zimmerman thought it would be a good idea to chase after the unknown, aggressive teenager - who had suddenly decided to flee? That would actually make me think even less of him. In any event, Zimmerman failed to note any actual aggressive move by Martin beyond looking at him, which was really just returning a stare, so let's give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
2) GZ talked through the events with investigators for hours, both that evening and the next morning. For hours... without legal representation. If they couldn't trip up GZ in all that time, with no attorney present, then that looks good for him. After all, a guy with "all the guile and foresight of a tree stump" couldn't have pulled that off.

What makes you sure they didn't 'trip him up' or that they tried to? The original detective wanted to file charges and there are rumors of favoritism, take your pick.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

TM might have made the first aggressive move while GZ was in the vehicle.

That's far fetched given GZ was on the phone to 911 until after he got out of his SUV.

 

[LTC8K6]

So, Zimmerman thought it would be a good idea to chase after the unknown, aggressive teenager - who had suddenly decided to flee? That would actually make me think even less of him. In any event, Zimmerman failed to note any actual aggressive move by Martin beyond looking at him, which was really just returning a stare, so let's give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, it's factual that Zimmerman chased TM.

Sorry I forgot.

That must be why Serino asked for manslaughter and not murder. He must have known that GZ chased TM, and then forgot about it too.

Zimmerman just invented the bit about TM staring at him and coming towards him with his hands in his waistband on the fly, while on the phone, knowing he would need that later after he shot TM. After all, no one would consider that aggressive in a crime ridden community.

Goodness gracious. I must need more rest. All this sleuthing is making me dizzy. I think I have the vapors, whatever that is...

 

[Giz]

Yes there is. In DeeDee's account, Trayvon specifically said that after losing George, George had caught up with him again and was getting closer. Are we back to arguing semantics again? "Caught up with him" vs "somehow got close enough to speak but didn't actually cause this proximity?"

DeeDee heard Trayvon talking about trying to evade George. There's nothing to refute that. There's only the word of a proven violent, dishonest man that somehow Trayvon told DeeDee he was trying to run away from George while secretly plotting his MMA surprise attack.

DeeDee heard Zimmerman say, in an angry voice, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE". Another witness heard a loud man, who was not the voice screaming later, who sounded "aggressive".

I don't know who spoke first, but we do know that George left his car, Trayvon ran to avoid him, and then told the only witness who isn't dead or George himself, that George had continued following him and had found him again.

You know who has less credibility than GZ?: DeeDee.

Seriously, if she had really heard:
a) TM saying he would try and evade GZ
b) GZ catch up with TM
c) GZ accost TM angrily
d) Phone go dead
... would she have just sat on that knowledge for two weeks until the family's lawyer tracked her down? Surely she would have called 911, or friends/family of TM? That she didn't do anything after the call makes me sure that she didn't hear anything that sounded like TM being in peril. Anything at all.

 

[johnny karate]

You know who has less credibility than GZ?: DeeDee.

DeeDee's credibilty might be in question... but less credibility than the guy who colluded with his wife to deceive the court? Come on.

 

[Giz]

What makes you sure they didn't 'trip him up' or that they tried to? The original detective wanted to file charges and there are rumors of favoritism, take your pick.

This is the detective that also is on record, elsewhere, as not wanting charges filed? Do we know which statement is final/accurate?

Also - favoritism? The Zimmerframers have been trying to show GZ's depraved frame of mind by showing that he called the Sanford PD "Lazy and Sloppy"... now Sanford PD are supposedly suppressing evidence in a murder case in order to help him?

I think you need a new first name!

 

[LTC8K6]

That's far fetched given GZ was on the phone to 911 until after he got out of his SUV.

Wait, I thought GZ said TM circled his vehicle?

Plus we have the stare and approach as well, which did occur during a phone call.

Perhaps not everything happened while GZ was on the phone?

We also have this, from the noted liar, which sounds like aggression, but maybe I need to sit down....

Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.

He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.

 

[LTC8K6]

You know who has less credibility than GZ?: DeeDee.

Yeah. You can say that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes there is. In DeeDee's account, Trayvon specifically said that after losing George, George had caught up with him again and was getting closer. Are we back to arguing semantics again? "Caught up with him" vs "somehow got close enough to speak but didn't actually cause this proximity?"

DeeDee heard Trayvon talking about trying to evade George. There's nothing to refute that. There's only the word of a proven violent, dishonest man that somehow Trayvon told DeeDee he was trying to run away from George while secretly plotting his MMA surprise attack.

DeeDee heard Zimmerman say, in an angry voice, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE". Another witness heard a loud man, who was not the voice screaming later, who sounded "aggressive".

I don't know who spoke first, but we do know that George left his car, Trayvon ran to avoid him, and then told the only witness who isn't dead or George himself, that George had continued following him and had found him again.

http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W8_SAO4 04022012.wav
about 10:00 in.

He told me the guy was getting real close to him.
The next thing I hear is [trayvon saying] "why you following me for"
Then I heard the old man say "what are you doing around here"

Clearly she says Trayvon spoke first, and she does not use the word angry to describe any dialogue.

I recommend everyone listen to her story.
About 9:00 in:
"He said he aint gonna run because he is right by his fathers house. So in couple minutes he said the man following him again, he behind him." But he [trayvon] can't run, because he out of breath.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's far fetched given GZ was on the phone to 911 until after he got out of his SUV.

Almost as far fetched as the idea TM called 911.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

how does this make news actually? Seems like a couple people got killed around here for their bikes and it didnt hardly make local news.

 

[Unabogie]

http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W8_SAO4 04022012.wav
about 10:00 in.



Clearly she says Trayvon spoke first, and she does not use the word angry to describe any dialogue.

I recommend everyone listen to her story.
About 9:00 in:
"He said he aint gonna run because he is right by his fathers house. So in couple minutes he said the man following him again, he behind him." But he [trayvon] can't run, because he out of breath.

Right. In her story, Zimmerman was getting real close to him. Why is this so hard to accept? Trayvon was trying to get away, George was trying to make sure that didn't happen because those ******** ALWAYS get away. So according to DeeDee, George got close to him. We don't know who spoke first, but we do know who followed whom, and we also know George was angry, based on DeeDee, based on the other witness, and based on George cussing while on the phone with a police dispatcher.

Seems pretty clear to me, unless you just want to wish DeeDee away like some people want to.

 

[Amazer]

TM might have made the first aggressive move while GZ was in the vehicle.

Like? And what evidence do you have to back that up?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Fallacy of the excluded middle.

Rubbish. A jury that knows he is a person who has flagrantly misled the court will be that much less likely to believe any other testimony he gives.

Why do you even think I committed the fallacy of the excluded middle?
______

At any rate, I think the biggest problem for Zimmerman's case will be to convince the jury that while his motive at the beginning was to not let Martin get away, it somehow changed prior to the start of the confrontation. (That is, his earlier motive for following Martin doesn't seem to me to be at all logically consistent with the notion that it was Martin who initiated the confrontation. ) I think the only credible thing he can argue is that his motive (to keep tabs on Martin, possibly even to confront Martin) didn't change until Martin was beating him up--that is, after the confrontation was initiated.

 

[Unabogie]

Like? And what evidence do you have to back that up?

You're kind of new to the thread. All speculation is acceptable when it's about Trayvon Martin and what he may have done, ingested, or been planning with his burglary tools and watermelon lean.

But try and speculate about why George shot him, and you're speaking with no evidence and must be silenced.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Right. In her story, Zimmerman was getting real close to him. Why is this so hard to accept? Trayvon was trying to get away, George was trying to make sure that didn't happen because those ******** ALWAYS get away. So according to DeeDee, George got close to him. We don't know who spoke first, but we do know who followed whom, and we also know George was angry, based on DeeDee, based on the other witness, and based on George cussing while on the phone with a police dispatcher.

Seems pretty clear to me, unless you just want to wish DeeDee away like some people want to.

I don't wish DeeDee away - she is a nightmare for the prosecution.

Why do you say we don't know who spoke first ? GZ got close to him according to DeeDee is believable, but TM spoke first is not ? Both DeeDee and GZ say TM spoke first.

Where does deedee say GZ is angry ?

C'mon, I gave you quotes and times from her testimony. And you still seem all puzzled about what she said and didn't say ?