Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

I would hate to have you on the jury if I was being tried for something.

Protip: If you're on trial for something, comport yourself with honesty and integrity, and then you won't have to worry about people on the jury wishing to burn you at the stake because you proved yourself to be lacking both.

 

[Giz]

Not that I think Zimmerman was intent on shooting Martin when he left his car to follow him, but I do find it amusing that it is thought that someone who has now proven himself to have all the guile and foresight of a tree stump couldn't possibly be stupid enough to intentionally kill someone after calling the police.

More like:

1) GZ had called the police many times, always (as a good citizen should) providing them with information but letting them them do the pursuit/apprehension. Why should it have been any different this time?

2) GZ talked through the events with investigators for hours, both that evening and the next morning. For hours... without legal representation. If they couldn't trip up GZ in all that time, with no attorney present, then that looks good for him. After all, a guy with "all the guile and foresight of a tree stump" couldn't have pulled that off.

 

[Giz]

Not really.

The physical evidence in question are the injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head.

The only evidence to indicate those injuries were received from Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the ground is the word of a proven liar.

Are we going back to the idea that GZ caused some damage to his head and jacket in the 30 seconds before the police arrived? All the time hoping that no neighbours saw him?

And then the next morning, he broke his own nose in order to complete the trifecta of fake injuries? All the time hoping that none of the detectives who saw him the previous evening at the station house would notice an additional injury?


I do seem to remember these ideas having been mooted before... but I'd assumed that after April 1st had come and gone their popularity would fade...

 

[GWCarver]

The judge did think it was important enough to revoke bail -- the judge has revoked his bail. If the judge reinstates his bail it will be because of facts demonstrated that either rehabilitate GZ's credibility (unlikely) or that are independent of his credibility.

At that's exactly how it will play out in his trial. If he is acquitted, it will be because they rehabilitate his credibility (unlikely), because of evidence that does not rely on his credibility, or simply because the State could not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.


True. but in this case, there was a consequence. A very serious consequence.

Edited to meet your exacting standards by adding "continue to":

ETA - If the judge doesn't think it is important enough to continue to revoke bail, de la Rionda will have a hard time convincing a jury it is proof that he is a murderer.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Well he'd only been doing it for five months. Martin was the first he'd managed to spook into running. Can't shoot em if they don't run.

Sure you can. you just don't lead 'em as much ...

 

[johnny karate]

More like:

1) GZ had called the police many times, always (as a good citizen should) providing them with information but letting them them do the pursuit/apprehension. Why should it have been any different this time?

Because, as Zimmerman put it, "these ******** always get away".

Besides we know Zimmerman didn't just sit back and let the police do their job. He got out of his car to follow Martin. What the proven liar would like us to believe is that he suddenly decided to stop following Martin, and then was ambushed by the person who only moments before was running away from him.

2) GZ talked through the events with investigators for hours, both that evening and the next morning. For hours... without legal representation. If they couldn't trip up GZ in all that time, with no attorney present, then that looks good for him. After all, a guy with "all the guile and foresight of a tree stump" couldn't have pulled that off.

As I've stated previously, Zimmerman didn't have to concoct some elaborate story. All he had to do was tell the police what happened while leaving out and/or changing the parts that would incriminate him.

And considering the lead investigator felt there was sufficient cause to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, I'm not sure how convincing the police found his story.

Are we going back to the idea that GZ caused some damage to his head and jacket in the 30 seconds before the police arrived? All the time hoping that no neighbours saw him?

And then the next morning, he broke his own nose in order to complete the trifecta of fake injuries? All the time hoping that none of the detectives who saw him the previous evening at the station house would notice an additional injury?


I do seem to remember these ideas having been mooted before... but I'd assumed that after April 1st had come and gone their popularity would fade...

Yes, because the only possible ways in which Zimmerman could have received those injuries is either by having Martin repeatedly bash his head on the ground, or self-infliction. There is absolutely no other possible way for someone to get two small cuts and minor abrasions on the back of their head during a fight.

 

[Mumbles]

More like:

1) GZ had called the police many times, always (as a good citizen should) providing them with information but letting them them do the pursuit/apprehension. Why should it have been any different this time?

That's for Zimmerman to explain, I suppose, but it doesn't really change the fact that this time was absolutely different. Zimmerman failed to note any suspicious behavior by Martin when he made his 911 call, and as Martin fled (a reasonable response to someone pulling over to the side of the road and staring at him), Zimmerman existed his car and followed. And when the operator gave Zimmerman the chance to arrange a meeting place with the police, he refused, instead asking that the police cruiser call him directly once they got to the scene. This is well beyond "good citizen" behavior, and well into the "stupidly reckless" category.

2) GZ talked through the events with investigators for hours, both that evening and the next morning. For hours... without legal representation. If they couldn't trip up GZ in all that time, with no attorney present, then that looks good for him. After all, a guy with "all the guile and foresight of a tree stump" couldn't have pulled that off.

Frankly, that doesn't really raise my estimate of his intelligence. In any case, has any of this footage or interviews been released yet? I've said it before, but the guys who were defending him in the press have been all over the map, making their own outlandish or disproven claims, so unless we get Zimmerman's story directly from him, it's time to put away all of this talk about head bashing or whatever.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This is a fun new tactic! Everyone lies, so what's the big deal?

Yes, sarcasm is funny. But you know that isn't an honest representation of what I wrote.

Of course context matters.

Well, see ... you confused me when you wrote :

Zimmerman lied. Period. Everything else is just spin.

I thought the context was part of everything else.

 

[crimresearch]

Are we going back to the idea that GZ caused some damage to his head and jacket in the 30 seconds before the police arrived? All the time hoping that no neighbours saw him?

And then the next morning, he broke his own nose in order to complete the trifecta of fake injuries? All the time hoping that none of the detectives who saw him the previous evening at the station house would notice an additional injury?


I do seem to remember these ideas having been mooted before... but I'd assumed that after April 1st had come and gone their popularity would fade...

No, no, you forgot about the time machine...

All these explanations about non-injuries, expired passports, missing bullets, girlfriend hearing the gunshots, the victim's body moving around, audio experts, conflicting witness statements about Zimmerman on top of a little boy...

Work perfectly if you just factor in the time machine.

Obviously Obama has lent his to GZ.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Because, as Zimmerman put it, "these ******** always get away".

Besides we know Zimmerman didn't just sit back and let the police do their job. He got out of his car to follow Martin. What the proven liar would like us to believe is that he suddenly decided to stop following Martin,.

Well, it's hard to follow someone if you don't know where they are. And since we heard him say on the phone he didn't know where TM was ...

and then was ambushed by the person who only moments before was running away from him.

It was more than moments. Ambushed is your word. According to 'police sources' (i.e. GZ story) and DeeDee, there was a conversation before TM hit GZ. A 'sucker punch' if you will.

Your 'version' of the story doesn't take any of the information we know into account.

As I've stated previously, Zimmerman didn't have to concoct some elaborate story. All he had to do was tell the police what happened while leaving out and/or changing the parts that would incriminate him.

I think knowing what parts incriminate him, and anticipating what witnesses may have seen and physical evidence may prove make that much more difficult than you imply.

And considering the lead investigator felt there was sufficient cause to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, I'm not sure how convincing the police found his story.

Again, we have conflicting reports. I still think Serino wanted to charge manslaughter because, as he stated, GZ should have stayed in the car. And the SA he spoke with said 'no, that's not gonna fly.'

Yes, because the only possible ways in which Zimmerman could have received those injuries is either by having Martin repeatedly bash his head on the ground, or self-infliction. There is absolutely no other possible way for someone to get two small cuts and minor abrasions on the back of their head during a fight.

You are treading on dangerous ground. Careful, you'll find yourself making a claim about what you think actually happened.

GZ really doesn't have to prove much for self defense. It's up to the state to prove, for example, he got the cuts some other way. And I see that despite the fact the EMTs thought they needed stitches, they were still minor.

 

[Rare Truth]

Courts hear provable lies every day. There are rarely consequences of any sort.

In a number of circimstances there are.

I disagree with "rarely."

If a judge finds out you lied to him in about material facts, there are often times hell to pay.

Just like there was this time.

 

[Rare Truth]

Because, as Zimmerman put it, "these ******** always get away".
...

Add this to that:

Z's BFF, Frank Taaffe: "The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,”

"[Zimmerman] had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...es-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter?lite

 

[Rare Truth]

To add more: Zimmerman the year prior called the Sanford PD lazy and sloppy - publicly.

"It was disgusting what I saw" -GZ

He certainly had an opinion the SPD had not been doing their jobs.

<<<George to the rescue!>>>

 

[GWCarver]

Because, as Zimmerman put it, "these ******** always get away".

You know, this quote is repeated by TM supporters and anti-Zimmerman zealots around the internet, and it is quoted with a straight face, as if this isn't one of the most common "cuss words" in the English language and is used by millions of people daily do describe anyone who someone finds annoying. Most of us are lucky it isn't allowed here.

I would say anyone who has to resort to using this quote in his argument has a very weak argument, indeed.

 

[Unabogie]

You know, this quote is repeated by TM supporters and anti-Zimmerman zealots around the internet, and it is quoted with a straight face, as if this isn't one of the most common "cuss words" in the English language and is used by millions of people daily do describe anyone who someone finds annoying. Most of us are lucky it isn't allowed here.

I would say anyone who has to resort to using this quote in his argument has a very weak argument, indeed.

It's not the word. It's the sentiment behind it. It presupposes that Martin was part of that group of ********, and that he was in the process of "getting away". It's also hostile. So George had already jumped to the conclusion that Martin was some sort of criminal, that he was in the act of doing something wrong, and that his getting away would be just one more ******* eluding what he thought were incompetent police.

This is why, by the time he caught up with Martin, he was mad and barked his "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE" in that "angry" and "aggressive" voice. That's why people keep referencing that line, because it shows George was already in an aggressive and angry frame of mind, for no reason at all, and that this aggression was directed towards Martin even though Martin had done nothing wrong.

 

[Rare Truth]

You know, this quote is repeated by TM supporters and anti-Zimmerman zealots around the internet, and it is quoted with a straight face, as if this isn't one of the most common "cuss words" in the English language and is used by millions of people daily do describe anyone who someone finds annoying. Most of us are lucky it isn't allowed here.

I would say anyone who has to resort to using this quote in his argument has a very weak argument, indeed.

It goes directly to Z's state of mind.

You're going to have to deal with it if you don't like seeing it.

"these ******** always get away" "*********** punks..."

Mens rea.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

deleted

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's not the word. It's the sentiment behind it. It presupposes that Martin was part of that group of ********, and that he was in the process of "getting away". It's also hostile. So George had already jumped to the conclusion that Martin was some sort of criminal, that he was in the act of doing something wrong, and that his getting away would be just one more ******* eluding what he thought were incompetent police.

I can basically agree with those sentiments. Your next paragraph though ....

This is why, by the time he caught up with Martin, he was mad and barked his "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE" in that "angry" and "aggressive" voice.

There is no account where he caught up to TM. Some witness may have heard loud voices, but had no clue what the actual words are, or who was saying what. And that's assuming the story doesn't change again. Who spoke first ? TM ? What was his tone ? Loud and Barking ? How do you know ?

That's why people keep referencing that line, because it shows George was already in an aggressive and angry frame of mind, for no reason at all, and that this aggression was directed towards Martin even though Martin had done nothing wrong.

You know, I sometimes call people who cut in front of me ********. That doesn't necessarily make me 'angry and aggravated' , and certainly not 'angry and aggravated' to assault or even necessarily confront them.
This meme that the ******** always get away somehow proves that GZ is Michael Douglas in Falling Down is getting ridiculous.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, sarcasm is funny. But you know that isn't an honest representation of what I wrote.

Well, see ... you confused me when you wrote :

Zimmerman lied. Period. Everything else is just spin.

I thought the context was part of everything else.

Yeah, speaking of misrepresentations and context... do you suppose when I wrote "everything else" it was in reference to the post to which I was responding, or the totality of existence?

I think knowing what parts incriminate him, and anticipating what witnesses may have seen and physical evidence may prove make that much more difficult than you imply.

You say that as if it's what Zimmerman consciously planned. Getting away with a lie through happenstance doesn't require any special intellectual prowess on the part of the liar.

And remember, he hasn't actually gotten way with anything yet.

Again, we have conflicting reports. I still think Serino wanted to charge manslaughter because, as he stated, GZ should have stayed in the car. And the SA he spoke with said 'no, that's not gonna fly.'

Maybe. Or maybe Serino suspected Zimmerman was lying, but since he couldn't actually prove it, the state's attorney refused to file charges.

Either way, it's not as if the police were completely convinced of Zimmerman's innocence. So the notion that Zimmerman must be telling the truth because he doesn't have the capacity to fool the police doesn't really hold water if the police weren't actually fooled.

You are treading on dangerous ground. Careful, you'll find yourself making a claim about what you think actually happened.

I don't know what happened. But I don't believe Zimmerman was a completely innocent victim to an unprovoked assault anymore than I believe Zimmerman is a virulent racist who was out that night hunting black kids.

GZ really doesn't have to prove much for self defense. It's up to the state to prove, for example, he got the cuts some other way. And I see that despite the fact the EMTs thought they needed stitches, they were still minor.

That's because the doctor who looked at them the next day noted they didn't need stitches because they were healing fine on their own. So I guess the EMT was wrong.

 

[LTC8K6]

TM might have made the first aggressive move while GZ was in the vehicle.