Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Skeptic Ginger]

If GZ made a mistake, and is an honest person, he should be able to testify without any trouble at a new bond hearing.

If not, then he's in deeper water than he was before.

Are you taking bets?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Current US passport. 'Current'. As you are well aware, O'mara pointed out that it was expired, so it wasn't current. It wasn't useable....

You missed a little detail there, CR. I'm pretty sure it's been reported that George turned over his expired passport he had previously claimed was lost, while his wife told him she put his unexpired replacement passport in their safe deposit box and George told her to keep it safe.

 

[Kaosium]

You missed a little detail there, CR. I'm pretty sure it's been reported that George turned over his expired passport he had previously claimed was lost, while his wife told him she put his unexpired replacement passport in their safe deposit box and George told her to keep it safe.

Yet he didn't flee, and the judge gave him 48 hours to report rather than having him hauled in by police, I guess he wasn't very worried about it either.

Didn't he dismiss the prosecution's contention regarding the passport anyway? Why do you suppose he did that?

 

[crimresearch]

You missed a little detail there, CR. I'm pretty sure it's been reported that George turned over his expired passport he had previously claimed was lost, while his wife told him she put his unexpired replacement passport in their safe deposit box and George told her to keep it safe.

You are, as usual, spinning a load of bull, in order to pretend that reality doesn't exist.

The judge rejected the prosecutor's motion on the passport. Period. End of story. Zimmerman didn't have the other one. Expired means expired, not 'current'. There was no such deception as you are fabricating.

But feel free to tell us how the judge simply doesn't understand the law as well as you do...

 

[LTC8K6]

Are you taking bets?

On which one?

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm sure you can provide a citation for that. If the trust account can't be used for legal purposes then what can it be used for?

Already cited GZ's lawyer and Jeralyn Merritt.

 

[LTC8K6]

The undercurrent you're missing is that there are a lot of gun lovers and since GZ used a gun he's their darling.

I'm a gun lover and I wish he'd kept on driving to the store.

 

[johnny karate]

Didn't he dismiss the prosecution's contention regarding the passport anyway? Why do you suppose he did that?

The judge rejected the prosecutor's motion on the passport.

At this point, I'm going to just go ahead and call this what it is: A lie.

There was only one motion from the prosecution, and the judge granted it.

This has been pointed out several times. Those still promulgating this falsehood are merely trying to spin gold out of horse****.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not unless the same individual did them all. That might be a connection.

I meant that I think lying about one is a big step from lying about the other.

 

[johnny karate]

I would just like to remind many of you that you have already professed you thought GZ had 0 credibility and no reason to tell the truth in the first place. So, in reality, you shouldn't be viewing him any differently now...

For the record, my contention has always been to be skeptical of anything Zimmerman says that cannot be otherwise substantiated because of his motivation to lie.

That contention has now shifted to outright disbelieving what he says because he has proven himself to be untrustworthy.

 

[johnny karate]

His story doesn't actually depend solely upon his word, and the prosecution has to do more than prove George Zimmerman is a liar, they have to prove he's a murderer.

How long do you plan to keep this up?

Months from now will you be saying 'George Zimmerman didn't disclose his paypal contributions at his bond hearing! He's lying, he's guilty!!!!'

Don't you think it might get kinda old by then?

In the police report it indicates he started talking to police when being taken into custody about yelling for help, obviously they were taking heed of what he said and were willing to report it, however it might have played out. If he'd lied about that do you suppose it would have been used against him? My point is within minutes from the time of the shooting everything he said about it was relevant, which means he didn't have any time to be thinking things through to create a 'story.'

However that witness testimony and physical evidence has wholly undermined the case made against him initially in the media, and so far has backed up crucial contentions regarding the nature of the fight. As it stands just what possible evidence could undermine the doubt a reasonable person might have that Trayvon might have been beating up George Zimmerman as opposed to the littler guy with a gun initiating hand-to-hand? Without evidence of the latter, how can there not be doubt?

Then why didn't they file charges initially? Perhaps I missed something here, but last I recall Serino tried to make a case for manslaughter but (was he overruled?) didn't because of lack of evidence. Was something else revealed?

Do you suppose GZ passing the voice-stress analyzer when asked these questions about the death of Trayvon might have curtailed that suspicion?

There's like a minute or two, isn't there? Not much of any time from when the 911 guy told him again that police were on their way, and GZ was seemingly nervous about not knowing where TM was. It then picks up with John who's surprised that TM doesn't let up on GZ when he tells them he's going to call police. At that moment John says TM had the fight well in hand, if he was the victim of an attack and just wanted out of it, why didn't he let up?

Instead the prosecution has to provide evidence that leaves no doubt that GZ was the one who confronted Martin, which is going to be tough to do what with the fact TM should have been long gone by the time GZ got off the phone.

I think the prosecution has to actually prove its case.

I think Dershowitz made a better case on why the prosecutor should be charged in the clip I just re-linked. I don't think she's the only liar or witholder of information who ought to be expecting charges at the end of the day either.

This post represents the subtle shift of the goal posts that is taking place as Zimmerman's defenders enter damage-control mode.

No one is saying that Zimmerman being proven a liar automatically makes him guilty of murder, or that it means the prosecution's job is done.

The fact that we now know Zimmerman is untrustworthy simply means his credibility has been compromised.

To what degree, and of what significance this will be in the long run is debatable.

But the fact remains: George Zimmerman is a liar who attempted to deceive the court.

 

[tsig]

I meant that I think lying about one is a big step from lying about the other.

Why would you think that?

How many lies does a man have to tell before we call him a liar?

 

[LTC8K6]

Why would you think that?

Why wouldn't I think it?

People will often tell a small lie, but not a big one, in my experience.

A friend might lie for you about some pot, but that would end at something like rape, for example.

A wife might lie for a husband about a tax matter, but that protection would not extend to cover a bank robbery or a murder, for example.

"Little white lies" are often seen as okay.

Petty criminals often have no problem justifying their petty thefts, but they would balk at rape or murder.

 

[Unabogie]

in regards to Zimmerman's passport mix up, the motion uses state department records to prove the existence of a second passport. Records show Zimmerman applied for a second passport in 2004 because the passport he surrendered to the judge "was lost or stolen." Zimmerman was granted a new passport that wouldn't expire until 2014. In a recorded phone call from a few days before the April 20 bond hearing, George and Shelley talked about the passport:*]

That's from the Atlantic. It is false that his only passport was expired.

.http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/06/george-zimmerman-was-busted-recorded-calls/53081/

 

[GWCarver]

This post represents the subtle shift of the goal posts that is taking place as Zimmerman's defenders enter damage-control mode.

No one is saying that Zimmerman being proven a liar automatically makes him guilty of murder, or that it means the prosecution's job is done.

The fact that we now know Zimmerman is untrustworthy simply means his credibility has been compromised.

To what degree, and of what significance this will be in the long run is debatable.

But the fact remains: George Zimmerman is a liar who attempted to deceive the court.

In the past few posts, you have accused not only Zimmerman, but crimresearch and Kaosium of lying. How does this advance the conversation? Zimmerman is probably fair game (even though he didn't say anything when he was "lying"), but the motion thing clearly has more "gotcha" value than it does advancing anyone's knowledge of the case. So it was one motion with two items, big deal. One of the items was dismissed by the judge and the other wasn't, so his bond was revoked. No one is denying his bond was revoked, so no one is saying that the motion to revoke bond was not approved. So, why call someone a liar over what is clearly a common misunderstanding of what is now a trivial matter that is over and done with?

 

[johnny karate]

In the past few posts, you have accused not only Zimmerman, but crimresearch and Kaosium of lying. How does this advance the conversation? Zimmerman is probably fair game (even though he didn't say anything when he was "lying"), but the motion thing clearly has more "gotcha" value than it does advancing anyone's knowledge of the case. So it was one motion with two items, big deal. One of the items was dismissed by the judge and the other wasn't, so his bond was revoked. No one is denying his bond was revoked, so no one is saying that the motion to revoke bond was not approved. So, why call someone a liar over what is clearly a common misunderstanding of what is now a trivial matter that is over and done with?

Because that "common misunderstanding" has been hashed out and clarified. Once someone continues saying something untrue past the point that it has been clearly and repeatedly shown to be untrue, misunderstandings become fabrications.

This is a thread in which the meaning of "follow" and "pursue" were hotly debated, among other trivial points. Casual falsehoods and embellishments in favor of the prosecution simply do not get a pass. Why should those that benefit the defense?

 

[johnny karate]

Why wouldn't I think it?

People will often tell a small lie, but not a big one, in my experience.

A friend might lie for you about some pot, but that would end at something like rape, for example.

A wife might lie for a husband about a tax matter, but that protection would not extend to cover a bank robbery or a murder, for example.

"Little white lies" are often seen as okay.

Petty criminals often have no problem justifying their petty thefts, but they would balk at rape or murder.

There isn't an eye-rolling emoticon big enough...

 

[Amazer]

I meant that I think lying about one is a big step from lying about the other.

It's my experience that people that lie about one thing, quite easily and frequently lie about other other things too.

 

[Kaosium]

At this point, I'm going to just go ahead and call this what it is: A lie.

There was only one motion from the prosecution, and the judge granted it.

This has been pointed out several times. Those still promulgating this falsehood are merely trying to spin gold out of horse****.

OK then, how would you put it? I've seen numerous reports that the judge dismissed the bit about the passport, which figures being as it was turned in weeks ago, right? Of what significance is it now? Did the prosecution actually try to put together a case that George Zimmerman was plotting something with the other passport when he relinquished it weeks back and then try to blindside the defense with it on a day that limiting discovery was supposedly on the agenda? Does that smell right to you, especially as it was no longer relevant and hadn't been for weeks?

As for the money, that was also disclosed a mere five days after the bail hearing, and has since been placed in a Legal Defense Fund which is now independently managed. He's being penalized for his omission, don't you suppose the fact that it was quickly rectified and actually (probably) wouldn't have made any difference will impact on whether he's granted bail again? Do you think that five day delay should cost him his life? Or for that matter even the (possibly) two years behind bars in isolation?

 

[Kaosium]

This post represents the subtle shift of the goal posts that is taking place as Zimmerman's defenders enter damage-control mode.

No one is saying that Zimmerman being proven a liar automatically makes him guilty of murder, or that it means the prosecution's job is done.

The fact that we now know Zimmerman is untrustworthy simply means his credibility has been compromised.

To what degree, and of what significance this will be in the long run is debatable.

But the fact remains: George Zimmerman is a liar who attempted to deceive the court.

Johnny, the 'goalposts' stay the same--evidence of murder against George Zimmerman--it's his prosecutors and persecutors that do the 'shifting.'