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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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The trial is at least a year away. So this won't affect it at all, imo. By then it will have been explained or smoothed over by GZ's team.

Unless he gets charged with something substantial.

I think that's wishful thinking. ALL of the events will have been a year in the past, so all of them will be given equal weight by the jury.

In Zimmerman's case, I don't see how he can avoid testifying about exactly what happened that night. His word about what caused the fight in the first place is all we'll have to figure out if he attacked Martin first or it was the other way around. And as soon as his cross examination starts, they will ask him if he's ever lied...

If the jury thinks he's a fraud and a conniving liar, then how will they buy his version?
 
Also occurs to me that if this CAN be brought in to the trial, it could run like this;

P. Mr. Zimmerman, we have established that you did lie about having that money and that you had panicked and made a bad decision, is that correct?

Z. Yes sir.

P. It's hard to make a correct decision when you have panicked, isn't it?

Z. It can be.

And that "It can be" would factor into the theory of the crime to be presented to the Jury...
 
It makes him a liar. And key aspects of his story are dependent entirely upon his word.


That's super. Guess what? He's still a liar.

His story doesn't actually depend solely upon his word, and the prosecution has to do more than prove George Zimmerman is a liar, they have to prove he's a murderer.

It has nothing to do with the evidence against him, and everything to do with his credibility. As it stands right now, he has none.

How long do you plan to keep this up? :)

Months from now will you be saying 'George Zimmerman didn't disclose his paypal contributions at his bond hearing! He's lying, he's guilty!!!!'

Don't you think it might get kinda old by then? :)

First of all, he didn't have just "mere minutes", unless you want to argue he immediately began giving the police a detailed account the moment they arrived.

In the police report it indicates he started talking to police when being taken into custody about yelling for help, obviously they were taking heed of what he said and were willing to report it, however it might have played out. If he'd lied about that do you suppose it would have been used against him? My point is within minutes from the time of the shooting everything he said about it was relevant, which means he didn't have any time to be thinking things through to create a 'story.'

Secondly, it's not as if he had to give some completely fabricated story. All he had to do was tell them exactly what happened with just any details that might incriminate him left out or changed. That the witness testimony or physical evidence hasn't yet undermined his version of events doesn't mean he didn't lie.

However that witness testimony and physical evidence has wholly undermined the case made against him initially in the media, and so far has backed up crucial contentions regarding the nature of the fight. As it stands just what possible evidence could undermine the doubt a reasonable person might have that Trayvon might have been beating up George Zimmerman as opposed to the littler guy with a gun initiating hand-to-hand? Without evidence of the latter, how can there not be doubt?

And it should be noted that the police did want to charge him with manslaughter.

So a professional investigator who has seen more of the evidence than any of us didn't feel the case was quite so open and shut.

Then why didn't they file charges initially? Perhaps I missed something here, but last I recall Serino tried to make a case for manslaughter but (was he overruled?) didn't because of lack of evidence. Was something else revealed?


It could be he had reason too suspect Zimmerman was the liar we now know him to be.

Do you suppose GZ passing the voice-stress analyzer when asked these questions about the death of Trayvon might have curtailed that suspicion?

Is someone on the losing end of fight always an innocent victim justified in killing the other person? That Martin was winning the fight shortly before he was killed hasn't ever really been in question. But a lot of what transpired before depends on Zimmerman's account.

There's like a minute or two, isn't there? Not much of any time from when the 911 guy told him again that police were on their way, and GZ was seemingly nervous about not knowing where TM was. It then picks up with John who's surprised that TM doesn't let up on GZ when he tells them he's going to call police. At that moment John says TM had the fight well in hand, if he was the victim of an attack and just wanted out of it, why didn't he let up?

Did he pursue and confront Martin? Who started the altercation? These are important questions for which the only answers we have come from the version of events of a proven liar.

Instead the prosecution has to provide evidence that leaves no doubt that GZ was the one who confronted Martin, which is going to be tough to do what with the fact TM should have been long gone by the time GZ got off the phone.

You may not find that to be significant, but others do.

I think the prosecution has to actually prove its case.



He didn't just lie to the prosecution. He lied to court, and apparently his own attorney.

Yeah, you go with that. At the end of the day, Zimmerman is still a liar who attempted to perpetrate a deception in a court of law. And now we're expected to believe what he tells about the night he killed someone under murky circumstances.

I think Dershowitz made a better case on why the prosecutor should be charged in the clip I just re-linked. I don't think she's the only liar or witholder of information who ought to be expecting charges at the end of the day either.
 
The mistake Zimmerman made was not telling the court his wife was lying or misrepresenting their finances during a hearing, as she was testifying....Ratting out your own spouse during a hearing that is being televised live is something most of us would like to avoid.
This is a valid point IF he didn't know she was going to lie. Thinking about it a little further, it's also possible that he did not want to advertise he had the money to his attorney for fear he'd immediately demand it all or bill him more etc.

The big question would be whether Omara explained to him what was going to come up at the hearing. It's hard to believe Omara didn't. Therefore I'm not giving GZ the benefit if the doubt at this point.
After the hearing he went back to jail, but he did tell his lawyer all about it the first time he saw him. Recall O'Mara was in no hurry to get him released because he felt it wasn't safe, so Z had to stay in jail a few extra days so he could make plans to go into hiding.
I don't know how it works but I'd assume he could have contacted his attorney to give him critical information a lot sooner than that.

The fact that even his attorney is saying what he's saying indicates to me that the next hearing this is not going to be able to be explained away. Do you think his wife decided to lie all on her own?

I guess the good news is this keeps the drama in the case coming and will make the next hearing quite interesting :D.
 
The more I think about it...the more I think the Judge may not change his "No Bond"
status.

Z deliberately tried to hide large sums of money and an active passport.

That tells me (and perhaps the judge) - he may have indeed been a flight risk.

GZ probably didn't count on the ankle bracelet ...yup. I'm leaning towards seeing Ole GZ in jail for quite some time.

Not calling it for certain yet, but I'm leaning that way.
So other than repeating the pretense that the Supreme Court ruling against forced self-incriminating testimony during pretrial hearings, and the judge's ruling on the passport not being an issue don't exist, what have you got that is either correct or useful?
 
I think that's wishful thinking. ALL of the events will have been a year in the past, so all of them will be given equal weight by the jury.

In Zimmerman's case, I don't see how he can avoid testifying about exactly what happened that night. His word about what caused the fight in the first place is all we'll have to figure out if he attacked Martin first or it was the other way around. And as soon as his cross examination starts, they will ask him if he's ever lied...

If the jury thinks he's a fraud and a conniving liar, then how will they buy his version?
They would have to follow the judge's instructions on when and where credibility on a totally unrelated matter can be considered as a factor in guilt.

Which of course, the judge would be considering per the well established legal test, before he even allowed it in.
 
This prosecutor tends to spring things on the defense at hearings, so I expect that to continue.

My guess will be that at the next bond hearing, Corey might come out with charges regarding the bond/passport deal.
So the prosecutor's going to tell Judge Lester that he was full of it when he said that the passport 'deal' was reasonably explained, by trying to file a perjury charge over it?

Yeah, I'm sure that will seal Zimmerman's fate...
 
GZ's bond possibly wouldn't even be raised, since the money really can't be used for bond since shortly after O'mara learned of it. GZ relinquished control of it shortly after telling O'mara about it. It's been transferred to a trust by O'mara, as required by FL law.

http://www.floridabar.org/divexe/rrtfb.nsf/FV/6D5B076E51CCBC9985257172004C0105

It's a trust account not a trust:

(a) Nature of Money or Property Entrusted to Attorney.

(1) Trust Account Required; Commingling Prohibited. A lawyer shall hold in trust, separate from the lawyer’s own property, funds and property of clients or third persons that are in a lawyer’s possession in connection with a representation. All funds, including advances for fees, costs, and expenses, shall be kept in a separate bank or savings and loan association account maintained in the state where the lawyer’s office is situated or elsewhere with the consent of the client or third person and clearly labeled and designated as a trust account. A lawyer may maintain funds belonging to the lawyer in the trust account in an amount no more than is reasonably sufficient to pay bank charges relating to the trust account.
 
"Mr. Zimmerman, have you lied to anyone in connection to this case?"

"No."

"Your honor, at this time I move to enter into evidence Mr. Zimmerman's previous testimony at his bond hearing"

(Assuming his lawyer lets him take the stand to explain his wife's lie)
 
"Mr. Zimmerman, have you lied to anyone in connection to this case?"

"No."

"Your honor, at this time I move to enter into evidence Mr. Zimmerman's previous testimony at his bond hearing"

(Assuming his lawyer lets him take the stand to explain his wife's lie)
That's a great fantasy. And the reality has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

But one should hold onto their dreams, even the little ones... right?
 
The judge was satisfied about the passport issue. So that appears to be closed.

There will be another bond hearing.

It would appear that GZ is no more able to pay a high bond now than what he claimed earlier, because those funds were surrendered shortly after that first bond hearing. GZ apparently cannot use them for bond.

I'm sure you can provide a citation for that. If the trust account can't be used for legal purposes then what can it be used for?
 
I'm not sure how much more proof you need than the fact that his lawyer says George understands how this undermines his own credibility. I don't understand how George can understand it but his supporters seem to find it baffling.

The undercurrent you're missing is that there are a lot of gun lovers and since GZ used a gun he's their darling.
 
Omara has to say words to that effect.

I don't see any connection between being scared about your future and failing to immediately report some money given to you, and lying about a homicide.
I doubt any judges or jurors will either.

They made a mistake about the money and their bond. They tried to keep it because they were unable to make a living any more.

That doesn't contradict the evidence in the death of TM.


Not unless the same individual did them all. That might be a connection.
 
Explain to me how this can be meaningful and it still be possible that George Zimmerman might be let out on bail? If it doesn't preclude that eventuality, then how important can this failure to disclose actually be?

George is sitting in jail. To me that would be important.
 
Do you think his wife decided to lie all on her own?

I really don't know. If Zimmerman told her to lie, I think the prosecutor would have brought it up. :) The way she answered the questions, it would seem she had some legal advice from someone. I don't even know if Zimmerman knew he was legally required to correct her, and I don't know if they thought the money donated somehow didn't count. All we know is the phone call transcripts presented by the prosecution have been accepted by O'Mara as evidence Zimmerman knew his wife had been involved with his money and he failed to intervene with a correction at his hearing.

We know ignorance of the law is no excuse, but unless someone spelled this out to him, I doubt if he would have understood it would be his obligation if he just signed a legal form that included 1(a) of the law above where he was supposed to sign. I read that law over and over and it still wasn't clear to me he would be required to correct erroneous information presented by others dynamically at this bond hearing. And I really don't understand how he can be compelled to testify at another bond hearing with complete disregard by the judge of his constitutional right to remain silent.

In any case, the only way to figure out what happened is to listen to the complete recordings, and see what the brother-in-law has to say.
 
Over a week BEFORE the bond hearing, a claim of indigency and a statement he had no passport - APRIL 12th:
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Current US passport. 'Current'. As you are well aware, O'mara pointed out that it was expired, so it wasn't current. It wasn't useable.

As you are well aware, the judge dismissed the prosecutor's motion on the passport, saying that the explanation was reasonable.

But hey, keep on trashing your own credibility, while ranting wildly about that of others.
 
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You missed one thing utterly material to guilt; Was the force proportional to the threat? If the response was disproportionate, he's guilty no matter how it went down.
IYO what was the proportionate force GZ should have used?
 
The undercurrent you're missing is that there are a lot of gun lovers and since GZ used a gun he's their darling.

I think the threats of riots and the bounty placed on GZ's head after a wholly disingenuous case was made to the media (which now has been just about thoroughly debunked) suggests just who let their politics do their thinking for them on this one. ;)
 
Do I have to remind everybody that it requires evidence, not conjecture, to convict somebody of a crime?

And this is the problem for the prosecution, they don't actually have any evidence, and certainly not evidence beyond reasonable doubt, unless they are hiding something huge.

It doesn't matter how lacking in credibility GZ is, the simple thing that it all boils down to is did GZ have a reasonable fear for his life at the point in time that he pulled the trigger, and the prosecution having to show beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't.

I think the prosecution already have lost Murder 2, there is nothing to suggest drepraved indifference, in fact nothing to prove that GZ commited any crime or depraved action up to the point of pulling the trigger. Despite some people appearing to want them to be, getting out of a vehicle and following someone is not illegal, and nor is failing to supply details of neighbourhood watch involvement. None of them can directly lead to someone's death in reasonable circumstances either.

Now I am sure some wag will be along in a moment and point out that TM didn't do anything illegal either. However once again, it's totally irrelevant to the issue. The entire George is guilty side has a single string in their bow, emotion, and they'll bang it on the table as long as they can because they know darn well that at the end of the day, if they have to go by the currently known facts, they simply doesn't support what they want to see happen.
 
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