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Why would a perfect god create?

The discussion seems to have become about why Piedpiper is mistaken.

I disagree entirely, he has made to most intelligent point in response to the OP.
 
Ignosticist said:
Apathy is, (at least by christianity standards) evil. It is one of the Seven deadly sins:Sloth[/URL].

So, if god is apathetic, god is evil.
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I don't really have much interest in Christian standards one way or another, but thanks. I actually hadn't stopped to consider that.

(Sorry for the dig-up, I wanted to say this and I lostm y connection for a couple of days.)
 
I also have had a sense my entire life that there is some god like force who controls every single thing that happens in the universe all according to some plan that is supposed to happen.

When I stub my toe on a rock or bang my elbow on something, I wonder why I deserved it and perceive agency within it. When I check outside my window at the exact moment the pizza man arrives at my house, it seems the universe is all ordered specifically to demonstrate to me some truth, and when I lose all my money and am 24 hours from having my power cut off without the money to even feed myself only to have a friend call that wants to commission a painting without even knowing if I needed any money, I have the urge to suppose that the universe has arranged all this for me to learn as some lesson, and that in the end all things will work out.

But I recognize that this is supremely egotistical and at worst stunningly grotesque and disgusting when I see the bad things that happen to other people, as if that would never happen to me personally because I am the only real person in reality, as much as my higher reasoning assures me this is not true, it's just a sense I have. All these things happen to other people to make me appreciate my life more, because I'm the one who really matters, a guilty pleasure to indulge. It's something I find childish and naive and cannot believe I hear it being indulged out loud by other adults, let alone people I respect.

It seems clearly born of psychological projection and a need to think in the context that things have reasons for happening, because I see that there are things that can be used for reasons.

Thank the gods I was not late for my appointment, it must have been worked out by the universe in the face of every obstacle I encountered that should have delayed me, how else have I literally walked into my appointment upon the very last 30 seconds I possibly could have without being late? Meanwhile a 5 month old girl is dying so that I can be glad I'm don't have a tumor that is permanently stimulating my pain receptors, after all her pain may only last a few years and then she get's to win the best reward ever.

It's interesting that of all the things theists and deists feel guilty for, it's not the urge they have to arrogantly assume they are personally important to the most powerful alpha male in the universe.

It's just a coincidence that we of course have the same model of existence as children concerning our relationship with our parents.

It's just a coincidence that institutions such as the military recognize this urge in people and exploit it.

I think the most jarring aspect of this outlook is that some of these people dare accuse others of being arrogant for being atheists, as if not being personally loved and guided by the most powerful alpha male in existence is something we'd rather replace with our self out of arrogance. And yet they feel it is humble to see this universe in it's size and age giving heed to their hopes and dreams and their experiences.
 
TimCallahan said:
The subject of this thread occurred to me after perusing AvalonXQ's thread on omniscience and free will, i.e. the question of whether or not God's omniscience makes free will impossible. My feeling is that it would. However, I didn't bother posting on the thread, because others had pretty well expressed and explained my position.

It then occurred to me that any unlimited deity, perfect in all ways, would not only be incompatible with free will, but with creation as well. If we envision a god with a capitol "G" -- God -- as being perfect in all ways, i.e. omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal; this deity would have no reason to create a universe, since such a creation would destroy the perfection of God alone. Another problem with God being perfect is that such a god would have no desire to create. Indeed, such a deity would have no desire whatsoever, since incompleteness is implicit in desire.

The concept of a less than perfect God - still the only game in town - would greatly simplify not only the issue of free will, but theodicy as well (on this issue pagans have a distinct advantage over monotheists). God's imperfection would also explain His / Her need to create, as well as His / Her love and desire for the salvation of His / Her created intelligences. Monotheists might object that their God would have to be perfect. However, any god who could create a universe would still be awe inspiring (I can't even manage a lousy hydrogen atom, much less a universe).

While I have other reasons for not believing in any god, the imperfection of such a deity would go a long way toward removing at least some barriers to belief. I'm particularly interested in hearing from theists on this subject: Could you believe in and worship a less than perfect God?
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While I'm not theist, I do like looking at things from the other side of the coin. you used a few typical religious terms you hear tossed around. I will make the assumption you mean god is perfect in anyway and form.

With that said I will quote "this deity would have no reason to create a universe, since such a creation would destroy the perfection of God alone." I would have to argue that this perfect being had but no choice to create the universe, since he would of knew of the possibility of it's existence. To not create it would be to deny oneself. It Just as we would deny ourselves by not having a drink of water when required.
 
Halfcentaur said:
It's just a coincidence that we of course have the same model of existence as children concerning our relationship with our parents.

It's just a coincidence that institutions such as the military recognize this urge in people and exploit it.

I think the most jarring aspect of this outlook is that some of these people dare accuse others of being arrogant for being atheists, as if not being personally loved and guided by the most powerful alpha male in existence is something we'd rather replace with our self out of arrogance. And yet they feel it is humble to see this universe in it's size and age giving heed to their hopes and dreams and their experiences.
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There is a lot problems with this kind of questions that have to be taken into consideration and two main aspects that stay pretty much the same.
Fear and Hope. Never really changes and our environment influences our outlook on life and how we interact.
A example of this is statistics show that crime is often higher in major Industrial areas. It's just environment, short and simple.
Most people have hope, and we all have fear. Fear stops us from burning ourselves with hot water. Hope frequently drives people to religion.

Religion plays those aspects. Fear = burn in hell. Hope = salvation.
Where everything becomes messy is. Diseases. Both physical and psychological blurs the lines. Location of birth (mid east versus near Vatican city)
What our parents teach us, morals. Basic level of intellegence. use of mind influencing drugs.
There is many more I cannot think of to list at this time. All these things push us one way or the other.

Personally I'll take Atheism over religion anyday. Meanwhile I think Richard Dawkins is very arrogant in his beliefs and I can't stand religion, but I do have a level of appreciation and interest in understanding religious history and how it affects our world...
In short, the problem is there is more variables beyond what can be comprehended. Suck it up lol :)
 
dafydd said:
You mean non-existent?
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I mean NULL

Saying God exists is nonsense because nobody knows what the word "God" means. The truth value of such a predicate would be null.

Saying God does not exists is nonsense because nobody knows what the word "God" means. The truth value of such a predicate would also be null.

:boggled:

It is of course fun to talk about "God", as I suppose it was fun for Lewis Carroll to write about Alice in Wonderland... but other than provide a good example on literary nonsense and the real life application of 3-valued-logic, it has no value whatsoever.
 
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Ignosticist said:
I mean NULL

Saying God exists is nonsense because nobody knows what the word "God" means. The truth value of such a predicate would be null.

Saying God does not exists is nonsense because nobody knows what the word "God" means. The truth value of such a predicate would also be null.

:boggled:

It is of course fun to talk about "God", as I suppose it was fun for Lewis Carroll to write about Alice in Wonderland... but other than provide a good example on literary nonsense and the real life application of 3-valued-logic, it has no value whatsoever.
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I know what the word god means. Speak for yourself please.
 
dafydd said:
I know what the word god means. Speak for yourself please.
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Oh? you do? Please do explain, in a free of ambiguities way, what the word god means. You definition should work for all religions so far (including pantheism and panentheism) and it of course should be free of any internal contradictions, and should also accurately apply for the gods of all religions

(Note, it is of course impossible for you or anyone to do that, but it will certainly be fun to watch you try... at least for a while... ) :rolleyes:
 
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Dog Breakfast said:
I guess this thread isn't really aimed at me, since I'm with the OP God-wise, but I've pondered the exact same thing on numerous occasions. The problem of evil comes to mind,

#1. God can stop evil but won't - he's malevolent
#2. God can't stop evil but wishes he could - he's not omnipotent
#3. God can stop evil and will - can't be since there's evil
#4. God can't stop evil, and wouldn't even if he could - he's not worth worshipping

Obviously the easiest answer is that God can't stop evil because he's not there, but if one really does believe in God, isn't the most comfortable answer to the problem of evil #2, that he really, really wishes he could stop evil, but just can't do it?
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You are SO transparent. If God "stopped all evil", then everyone and everything would be essentially reduced to the status of "puppet" completely and eternally under God's direct control.

You would then accuse God of being a "slave master", or some other such nonsense, and STILL declare him "malevolent", "not worth worshiping", etc.

Which preserves your nice little psychological "get out of jail free" card when it comes to hating God.
 
tsig said:
How can you know what god wants for you when you just said god is beyond human understanding?
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Because He can and does tell us through His divinely inspired Word (the Bible).

We limited, fallen men may not be able to properly perceive the full reality of God or understand it (the finite by definition can never understand or encompass the infinite), but that does not mean that He is unable to tell us, in terms we can understand what he wants for and from us.
 
Ignosticist said:
Oh? you do? Please do explain, in a free of ambiguities way, what the word god means. You definition should work for all religions so far (including pantheism and panentheism) and it of course should be free of any internal contradictions, and should also accurately apply for the gods of all religions

(Note, it is of course impossible for you or anyone to do that, but it will certainly be fun to watch you try... at least for a while... ) :rolleyes:
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God=Imaginary being. Easy-peasy. Religions are so diverse in their crazy idea that it would be impossible to provide an all-encompassing definition. Hinduism has a whole pantheon of gods. You can't provide a definition either, for the same reason.
 
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