Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

Could Trayvon have recognized George at that distance in the dark in the rain? It may be possible to see a figure sillouetted against the windows of the far building. But that would hardly provide enough information to make an identification. To keep your theory alive, you need to show that Trayvon would be able to recognize a stranger in those conditions that he had only seen the one time sitting in a vehicle.

That's a point for TM possibly waiting closer to the T...which still helps GZ's
case.

Maybe TM isn't sure it's GZ until he gets closer? He sees someone and then goes to see who it is. As he gets closer, he realizes it's GZ and he runs towards the T to confront GZ. A witness did report someone running that way, I think.

Maybe there are lights in the area?

Perhaps GZ did have the flashlight on?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

In her police interview, she described the incident as:

GIRLFRIEND: And then, I was still screaming, I was saying, "Trayvon! Trayvon!"
POLICE OFFICER: And there was no response?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, and then next thing—and next thing, the phone just shut off.
POLICE OFFICER: The phone shut off?
GIRLFRIEND: It just shut off.
​

Earlier she had said "the line went dead".
In neither case does she say the call ended or the phone hung up. You are making the assumption that the call ended because you want that time stamp marking the beginning of the altercation. But your desires don't dictate to reality.

So, in your opinion, "the line went dead" is not the same as having the call end or the phone hung up (thus ending the call) ?

Until there is some further evidence, the time stamp for that call only tells us, if you accept Dee-Dee's statement, that the altercation could not have started later than that time.

I don't know what you are going on about. You posted all this in response to my statement:

You might want to review the timeline.

About 7:12 is when Zimmerman tells the NEN operator TM is running

About 7:16 is when DD says TM confronted GZ

Hardly a few seconds....

Do you believe what you posted disproves my hilited claim?

It is possible that Dee-Dee could tell us how long she waited after the line went dead before hanging up her end and calling Trayvon back. this would help establish the earlier limit on the start time.

No it wouldn't.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Just the critical stuff like "He has a button on his shirt"

So he has to list all the details, or none. I see.

 

[Dan O.]

Zimmerman's head injuries do seem to favor the right side. I'm guessing Martin was a southpaw.

[qimg]http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9073/headrear.jpg[/qimg]

That's some pretty nasty swelling below the base of the skull.

When did George claim to have sustained those injuries? You are so hung up on trying to prove George is innocent that you haven't noticed what direction the blood is flowing.

 

[Dancing David]

If TM was the 12-year old we were initially told to belive he was, I could believe he might run away from a scary guy in a car. I have a very hard time believing the REAL TM was afraid of this big scary guy.

The original post here states clearly that TM was 17.

 

[Dan O.]

So, in your opinion, "the line went dead" is not the same as having the call end or the phone hung up (thus ending the call) ?



I don't know what you are going on about. You posted all this in response to my statement:



Do you believe what you posted disproves my hilited claim?


No it wouldn't.

If Trayvon's phone were muted, Dee-Dee would hear the line go dead as in dead silence, the audio would be shut off. If the connection were broken, here phone would say "call ended". There is a difference that you refuse to acknowledge. This destroys your argument that the recorded time of the end of the call marked the beginning of the altercation between George and Trayvon. When you are able to acknowledge these facts, you may again be able to participate in a rational discussion of the case. Until then, you are just echoing discredited talking points.

 

[Dancing David]

A lot of people have brought that up but I'm not sure I find it that unusual. He explained that the person was acting suspicious, looked like he was on drugs and so on. I see no reason why he'd feel the need to mention every detail when he just wanted the police to send someone. Now if he was saying that TM had banged on his car aggressively or something of that nature, than I'd find it odd that he omitted it.

I disagree, it is a very odd omission and makes me think that TM walked near the car. And that the statement is part of the case. Now there will be large latitude for interpretation, until the statements are presented in course.

We shall have to wait and see this is all third hand at best.

 

[LTC8K6]

When did George claim to have sustained those injuries? You are so hung up on trying to prove George is innocent that you haven't noticed what direction the blood is flowing.

The blood flow matches GZ's story.

The initial blood flow during the struggle would have been wiped away by the wet grass.

So all we would see is what we see in the iphone pic. Where it started to flow after GZ got up.

GZ got up immediately after shooting TM, and straddled TM.

All I would expect to see for blood flow is exactly what I see.

A thought just occurred to me.

Is Corey going to say that once the struggle shifted to the grass, GZ should have known that the GBH threat was over? That is, TM couldn't bang GZ's head on the cement any more, so GZ could no longer use DF.

 

[Cylinder]

When did George claim to have sustained those injuries? You are so hung up on trying to prove George is innocent that you haven't noticed what direction the blood is flowing.

Errr...Has Zimmerman claimed that he was in the face-up, prone position while he was being cleaned by SFD Rescue and while being transported to SPD? I must have missed that statement.

Funny thing about being being handcuffed in the back of a patrol car (it was a bad night - don't ask...) - the weight of your body makes the cuffs very uncomfortable.

Try this. Sit in a chair, put your hands behind your back and your thumbs together. Now you're in the basic cuffed-up position. Lean back so that you're shoulderblades are touching the chairback. That's pretty uncomfortable even without the metal cuff bands biting your wrists. Now lean your shoulders and head down. Feel any better?

Now how's that blood gonna flow out of your wound and congeal?

Hrmmm...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If Trayvon's phone were muted, Dee-Dee would hear the line go dead as in dead silence, the audio would be shut off. If the connection were broken, here phone would say "call ended". There is a difference that you refuse to acknowledge. This destroys your argument that the recorded time of the end of the call marked the beginning of the altercation between George and Trayvon. When you are able to acknowledge these facts, you may again be able to participate in a rational discussion of the case. Until then, you are just echoing discredited talking points.

So, until you can get DD to clarify that "it just shut off" and "the line went dead" actually mean the call ended, you prefer to rationalize the meaning to be "Trayvons phone was put on mute, but DD stayed connected for unknown length of time before she hung up" ?

That is what destroys my argument ?

I suppose it's just some sort of coincidence that DD reports TM confronting GZ and the line going dead all occur at approx 7:16 and 911 calls also start coming in at 7:16.

 

[Cylinder]

Is Corey going to say that once the struggle shifted to the grass, GZ should have known that the GBH threat was over? That is, TM couldn't bang GZ's head on the cement any more, so GZ could no longer use DF.

The state is going to have a big issue with W6's statement because they asserted in the bond hearing that that version was inconsistent with their interpretation of the physical evidence. That was one of the so-called inconsistencies that they cited.

 

[Dan O.]

So, until you can get DD to clarify that "it just shut off" and "the line went dead" actually mean the call ended, you prefer to rationalize the meaning to be "Trayvons phone was put on mute, but DD stayed connected for unknown length of time before she hung up" ?

That is what destroys my argument ?

I suppose it's just some sort of coincidence that DD reports TM confronting GZ and the line going dead all occur at approx 7:16 and 911 calls also start coming in at 7:16.

What destroys your argument is that you are choosing your prefered meaning and ignoring the alternative. Draw out the timeline. The end of Dee-Dee's call and the beginning of the 911 calls only place an upper limit on when the altercation began. You are trying to use these calls to set a lower limit and that is just bad logic.

 

[Dan O.]

Is Corey going to say that once the struggle shifted to the grass, GZ should have known that the GBH threat was over? That is, TM couldn't bang GZ's head on the cement any more, so GZ could no longer use DF.

Are you claiming that laying on soft grass with the assailant not pinning you down and your hand free not protecting your face and enough of a gap that you can reach you pistol under your waste band and enough distance between you and the assailant that you can draw your weapon and point it at the center of the assailants chest at an intermediat range which puts at least a couple of inches between the muzzle and the hoodie, that at that instant you are in danger of great bodily harm?

This looks like Trayvon was in the process of getting up which gave George access to his gun. George shot Trayvon not out of fear of future injury but out of anger for being beaten.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So, until you can get DD to clarify that "it just shut off" and "the line went dead" actually mean the call ended, you prefer to rationalize the meaning to be "Trayvons phone was put on mute, but DD stayed connected for unknown length of time before she hung up" ?

What destroys your argument is that you are choosing your prefered meaning and ignoring the alternative. Draw out the timeline. The end of Dee-Dee's call and the beginning of the 911 calls only place an upper limit on when the altercation began. You are trying to use these calls to set a lower limit and that is just bad logic.

I am relying on the preferred meaning. In the vernacular, "it just shut off" and "the line went dead" are both synonyms for the call ended, not whatever crazy set of circumstances you believe happened.

Additionally, when talking to State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda, DD says at 13:12 "then the phone just hung up"
http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W8_SAO4%2004022012.wav
Just in case there was any question what exactly "it just shut off" and "the line went dead" meant.

So it seems we have set a lower limit on the confrontation, approx 1 minute before the 911 calls started coming in.

 

[bookworm]

The original post here states clearly that TM was 17.

I'll repeat the clarification I made a few posts upthread:

OK - I admit. I was being silly. I was playing along with the media pictures of the 12 year old looking innocent little boy we were initially led to believe TM was. But my point is that if that was who TM really was, I could believe he might be afraid of some guy following him. Now that I know that's not who TM really was, not so much.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Are you claiming that laying on soft grass with the assailant not pinning you down and your hand free not protecting your face and enough of a gap that you can reach you pistol under your waste band and enough distance between you and the assailant that you can draw your weapon and point it at the center of the assailants chest at an intermediat range which puts at least a couple of inches between the muzzle....

...and TM's body. This is an interesting point. Can someone remind me what the minimum distance of "intermediate range" is? If the two were fighting and/or over the gun I'd expect the gun to be touching or almost touching TM's body when it was shot. One thing I've also wondered about is how GZ got a hold of his gun as he was getting the crap beat out of him. TM would seem to have a huge advantage at that point being on top of him. Unless he didn't realize it was there in which case perhaps GZ can be getting his gun as TM is still beating him.

 

[Cylinder]

...and TM's body. This is an interesting point. Can someone remind me what the minimum distance of "intermediate range" is?

You're probably already aware, but what's important when speaking to ranges is that the FDLE Firearms Lab - who ran tests with Martin's clothing and Zimmerman's weapon, magazine and ammunition - determined contact range. The ME determined intermediate range based on experience but not actual testing. Any claim that places the range over an inch or so has to explain the FDLE finding. For that reason, I use the term near-contact.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

...and TM's body. This is an interesting point. Can someone remind me what the minimum distance of "intermediate range" is? If the two were fighting and/or over the gun I'd expect the gun to be touching or almost touching TM's body when it was shot. One thing I've also wondered about is how GZ got a hold of his gun as he was getting the crap beat out of him. TM would seem to have a huge advantage at that point being on top of him. Unless he didn't realize it was there in which case perhaps GZ can be getting his gun as TM is still beating him.

The FDLE LABORATORY REPORT dated March 12. 2012 on both of TM shirts concluded:
The sweatshirts each display a hole located in the lIpperleft chest area. The areas around these hol::s were nlicroscDpic~l1y examined <Inti chemically processed fbI' the presence ofgmlShot resicitles. Both hol~s display JesidllCs alld pbysical effects consistent with a contact shot.

So, the shirts say contact shot.

Edit: see post above

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Got it, thanks guys.

 

[LTC8K6]

Are you claiming that laying on soft grass with the assailant not pinning you down and your hand free not protecting your face and enough of a gap that you can reach you pistol under your waste band and enough distance between you and the assailant that you can draw your weapon and point it at the center of the assailants chest at an intermediat range which puts at least a couple of inches between the muzzle and the hoodie, that at that instant you are in danger of great bodily harm?

This looks like Trayvon was in the process of getting up which gave George access to his gun. George shot Trayvon not out of fear of future injury but out of anger for being beaten.

There's no indication that the shot was any further away than what you'd get from the story GZ told. All evidence and testing points to a very close shot.

If there is such evidence, of a shot from further away, it would certainly have been pointed out in that affidavit to get the M2 charge.

Do you think GZ should have announced that he was about to shoot? "Stop or I'll shoot!", perhaps?

What if it doesn't stop?

Which head bang will render GZ unconscious? How many are enough?

What if TM is suffocating GZ at that point, preventing GZ from asking TM to stop?

I don't know the exact timing of the shot.

There's a utility cover there. TM may have continued to bang GZ's head on that. I've heard that it is also cement, but I am not sure. Maybe it's not and it wouldn't do damage. I don't know.

We don't know GZ's exact story. It's certainly possible that GZ has a problem with his version(s) of events. But there's no way to know at this point, and no reason to assume.

It's hard to believe that the SPD's initial investigation would not have uncovered any glaring inconsistencies in GZ's accounts. They were actually quite thorough, contrary to what we were all told at first.