WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44

[Tony Szamboti]

tmd,

You have no feeling for, sense of, engineers & engineering.

You should stop trying to assert what they can and cannot do.



Oh, if only you really intended to stop. But we both know that this statement is false.

You will continue going around & around & around in circles with anyone who disagrees with you.

The Hamster Wheel of Stupid.



Yup, I choose to do so. Because I've seen it with my own eyes. I've even done it on hundreds of occasions. (And have been right often enough that they still give me a sizable paycheck & call me an engineer.)

One famous example: the engineers at Morton-Thiokol predicted that the shuttle Challenger had a significant chance to blow up if they launched it that cold day in 1986. Even tho it had never happened before. They felt strongly enough that they refused to sign the launch authorization, even under tremendous pressure from management.

Care to reply to this incident? All details of the event are explicitly documented.

You never would have predicted the catastrophe.
"Most people" would never have predicted it.

Do you understand that some educated, specialized, experienced people may possess knowledge that you, and most people, do not?



Not 1 person in 1000 is a mechanical or structural engineer (or firefighters).
Who gives a flying fart what that 99.9% of the population think would or would not happen.

Now let's get to the structural & mechanical engineers & firefighters.
Not 1 in 1000 of those people are truthers.

Starting to get the picture?

No, I strongly suspect not. I suspect that, unless I can produce a signed document with all of their names on it, then you'll continue to write the same clap-trap: "Most people don't know that a 3rd tower collapsed that day…" Drivel.



You've finally said something right.

Yes, I choose to believe it.
And, yes, since I'm a mechanical engineer, it is "my business".
Thanks for recognizing that point.

Btw, i do not believe that he gave any precision to the time estimate. I think that part of the story may have "ripened" over time. I also believe that if he had said, "Jeez, I don't know. Maybe 2 hours, maybe 5 hours", then if had come down anywhere between 1 & 8 hours later, the firefighter may well have evaluated the estimate as "pretty much right on the mark".



YES THEY HAVE BEEN "hurt in some way". A significant number of the people that have been perceived by truthers, with zero evidence, as possibly "part of the conspiracy" have been hounded mercilessly for years.

Jane Standley
Reporter McIntyre
Ms. McClatchy (??), photographer of "End of Innocence" in Shanksville
Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien, pilot of C130 at Pentagon
Mark Roberts
the families of the airline passengers
Larry Silverstein
Principle engineers at NIST
… and lots more.

ALL of the above have told explicit stories of being stalked, harassed, etc. for years.

… oh yeah, including me.
(I was stalked to my home town internet board by some bona fide crazy truther lady, who went to a lot of effort in a (gratefully) futile effort to find out who I am. She also threatened to shoot me.)

You see, the situation AIN'T symmetric. It doesn't matter that Tony Szamboti & Richard Gage, et al, disclose their names. They are just idiots & fools. And the sane people will simply blow them off & tolerate them for the idiots & fools that they are.

But the truth movement is littered with crazies. From Judy Wood (harmless) to Balsamo (who bragged that it would be his pleasure to put a bullet in Mark Robert's brain), to my crazy lady.

The asymmetry is that truthers are dealing with (mostly) sane people in the debunker camp.
We are dealing with (mostly) sane people, but with a significant percent of crazies, in the Truther camp.

Sorry to break it to you. You should be more careful about the people with whom you get into bed. You've caught a new form of STD: Socially Transmitted Dementia.

So tell us who has hurt the people you mention being hurt due to their position on what occurred on 911 and what court cases were brought as a result of it.

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

It sounds like you can't provide that part of the information and are just out here yapping away like a big anonymous blowhard again.

 

[TJM]

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

ETA: Link contains NSFW language.

Yes.

 

[enik]

On May 26th, Tony quoted over at the 911FreeForums:

Enik, I believe you know as well as I do that a FEA analysis is only as reliable as its input. Otherwise, it is GIGO.

And two days later, your quote.

Remember "GIGO" introduced to be a cautionary comment on reliance on computers. FEA requires the same caution. If the assumptions/setting/context are wrongly defined FEA will produce either GO (garbage out)

I don’t think it was simple coincidence that the two of you use the same verbiage, are you taking Tony’s position? If so, where are your calculations to support my GIGO? Tony supplied his.

"it may be producing the right results for the wrong reasons - I have not studied it deeply enough to say...yet" Which, despite all the adverse commentary directed my way, is still a professionally sound interim position.

You still have not identified what you meant by me getting the right results for the wrong reasons yet you now claim it is a professionally sound interim position. When are you going to “study [it] deeply enough”? There is nothing in your quote to suggest you are saying something that means anything, yet I look forward when you do.

Enik initially followed the same technical limit, then expanded his technical boundary but is still tending to follow the procedural error.

None of this makes much sense. What technical limit? What technical boundary expansion? I asked you for your “technical boundary” or simply what you define it to be. What does it mean to “still tending to follow the procedural error”? It’s simply an FEA.

 

[ergo]

Wow. This just doesn't end.

Tony;

You have made a claim that NIST is wrong. I say it is your responsibility to support or "prove" your claim.

He has done so. In both forums.

You have not accepted that responsibility. That responsibility includes support of the assumptions on which you base your claim.

He has done so. In both forums. The assumptions are the same assumptions that NIST used. Tney are not for Tony to defend, since he is merely showing how their use does not lead to the conclusion NIST came to.

You, however, continue to claim the assumptions are invalid while providing no analysis of your own. When are you going to join the discussion at the level you aspire to?

It is not my responsibility to either prove NOR disprove your assumptions.

See above. If you are claiming that the NIST assumptions are invalid, you need to explain why and what they should have included. That is your claim to defend. If you don't want to defend it, you will continue to get the same results you are getting now, which is, no one is listening to you because you aren't saying anything.

What I have done is to identify one essential assumption which you have not supported. That is all I need to do to show that your claim is UNPROVEN. NOTE carefully I do not say "WRONG" merely "UNPROVEN".

If you are talking about your vague allusion to "single point of failure" you are again referring to NIST's assumption. You are again tasked with providing the elements you think they should have included. It indeed IS your burden of proof. I notice that everyone else here has been telling you that too. Apparently, it's not sinking in. Instead, you're desperately clinging to some illusion of authority on the matter when in fact you've provided no useful technical input.

 

[Christopher7]

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

ETA: Link contains NSFW language.
Yes.

That page was about Mark Roberts, not the people Tony asked about. Most of the posts at that page are very similar to the insults posted here. Kevin Barrett talked about a trial. The only post that could be considered a threat was by Rob Balsamo and he was talking about "if America fell into civil war". None the less, his comment is clearly over the line and unacceptable.

 

[000063]

What's truly stupid is the completeness of the so called collapse.

Oh, look, Clay responds with a one liner that doesn't actually address a single point made or answer a single question asked in the post he's responding to.

That page was about Mark Roberts, not the people Tony asked about.
...

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

Most of the posts at that page are very similar to the insults posted here.

I disagree.

If you are not aware that you're covering up for that traitor and mass murderer and yes insurance fraudster Silverstein, you'll figure it out when you're beside him on the scaffold. I'll be saving this email as evidence for your trial
+++
You obviously have you head in your ass,or better yet a paycheck comming from some OTHER means. Bottom line you sold the USA out. Your kind wil eventually get what you have comming.
+++
Merry Kristmas Gravy you slimy treacherous shill
+++
When the truth comes out, that Mark Roberts twat deserves to be executed, certainly not for being a danger to the movement's progress but just for being an inherently loathesome, bile-inducing, shill TWAT! He's a dirty shill and ALL SHILLS will be covered in piss and petrol and shot when the truth comes out.
+++
Like I have stated before people such as yourselves are revealed to be one of two things, government agents on a payroll or brainwashed morons who refuse to accept the truth. Have a Nice 4th of July, and remember you won't be portrayed as someone who just mindlessly let something happen in history, you will be portrayed as a Traitor to your own country!”
+++
"(Mark Roberts is) just as evil as Hitler...just as evil as Mao...just as evil as Stalin...that is no exaggeration– "28th Kingdom," on the JREF forum.
+++
Tony Szamboti: I would like to know how a dual citizen has the audacity to act like such a smart ass to sole American citizens who are simply asking questions, of their sole government, about those events when things don't seem to add up.

I'm trying to recall the last time I saw a debunker accuse a Truther of treason for not believing in the official story or compared anyone but suspected anti-Semites to Hitler. I'm drawing a complete blank.

 

[000063]

So tell us who has hurt the people you mention being hurt due to their position on what occurred on 911 and what court cases were brought as a result of it.

I'm sorry, I don't recall anyone asserting anything about court cases. I do recall the very poster you are responding to saying he was harassed himself, in addition to saying other people, who he specifically named, were also harassed.

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

Why is that relevant? If the claim is that people who have their names publicly associated with 9/11 evidence Truthers take issue with are often harassed, regardless of whether they argue on the Internet or not, why are you asking about only a subset of such?

It sounds like you can't provide that part of the information and are just out here yapping away like a big anonymous blowhard again.

And it looks like you're strawmanning furiously to avoid addressing the actual claim being made.

 

[LSSBB]

Wow. This just doesn't end.



He has done so. In both forums.




He has done so. In both forums. The assumptions are the same assumptions that NIST used. Tney are not for Tony to defend, since he is merely showing how their use does not lead to the conclusion NIST came to.

You, however, continue to claim the assumptions are invalid while providing no analysis of your own. When are you going to join the discussion at the level you aspire to?




See above. If you are claiming that the NIST assumptions are invalid, you need to explain why and what they should have included. That is your claim to defend. If you don't want to defend it, you will continue to get the same results you are getting now, which is, no one is listening to you because you aren't saying anything.



If you are talking about your vague allusion to "single point of failure" you are again referring to NIST's assumption. You are again tasked with providing the elements you think they should have included. It indeed IS your burden of proof. I notice that everyone else here has been telling you that too. Apparently, it's not sinking in. Instead, you're desperately clinging to some illusion of authority on the matter when in fact you've provided no useful technical input.

Tony is not making the same assumptions as NIST, he has placed additional constraints on the beams and girders and assumed linearity, all without explicit mathematical or computational justification. And since the NIST study has already been accepted by the scientific and engineering community at large, your mere wish it were so will not transfer away from him the burden of proof.

 

[Christopher7]

Tony is not making the same assumptions as NIST, he has placed additional constraints on the beams and girders and assumed linearity, all without explicit mathematical or computational justification.

Why don't y'all cut the crap and figure out how much a 53' 4" W24x55 floor beam would sag between 600^oC and 700^oC in 1 degree increments? Use all those degrees you say you have.

Put up or all your bla-bla about Tony's calcs is just a cover for the fact that not one of you guys knows how.

 

[NoahFence]

Why don't y'all cut the crap and figure out how much a 53' 4" W24x55 floor beam would sag between 600^oC and 700^oC in 1 degree increments? Use all those degrees you say you have.

Put up or all your bla-bla about Tony's calcs is just a cover for the fact that not one of you guys knows how.

As soon as YOU cut the crap and give us your theory on the ENTIRE day's events....

 

[thedopefishlives]

Why don't y'all cut the crap and figure out how much a 53' 4" W24x55 floor beam would sag between 600^oC and 700^oC in 1 degree increments? Use all those degrees you say you have.

Put up or all your bla-bla about Tony's calcs is just a cover for the fact that not one of you guys knows how.

There's a huge difference between knowing how and knowing that it's completely irrelevant. It has been explained to you by multiple people more qualified than I how the assumptions used by Tony may not be valid. Tony has not demonstrated the validity of his assumptions, so if I were you, I would be asking him to put up or shut up.

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

So tell us who has hurt the people you mention being hurt due to their position on what occurred on 911 and what court cases were brought as a result of it.

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

It sounds like you can't provide that part of the information and are just out here yapping away like a big anonymous blowhard again.

I have received numerous accusations of being a traitor, a Zionist shill, and more.

One of the instances of harrassment that I recall involved a truther demanding information about my background and associations and motivations.

It happened right here on JREF.

Sources:

• Tony Szamboti
• Carlitos
• Tony Szamboti
• Tony Szamboti
• Carlitos
• W. D. Clinger

The most humorous was one loon shouting in full caps in an e-mail that "WEIGHT IS NOT A FORCE!!!!"

Oh well.

 

[alienentity]

Precisely the reason I choose not to use my real name in this paranoid realm.

A sample of comments made to me:

'gawd you sicken me, how much are you paid for pushing the wtc BS .... you are exposed as a shill or traitor to country ... do you hate muslims? do you think zionism is a good thing?'
pt1gard

' Luckily there are lot's of people dedicated to exposing this fraud, and they won't go away until this has succeeded. And u can be counted on to be treated as a traitor to ur own country'
Sandberg1972

'Only IDIOTS believe you AlienEntity, People who know not Chemistry or Physics! YOU ARE A TRAITOR TO THE UNITED STATES PEOPLE!'
ZipOnOver

'Go watch loose change 2nd edition. Don't say anything until you do that. And if you have, and you still defend a maggot like larry, all due respect, you deserve NO respect. You would then qualify as a blind, stupid piece of traitor ****.'
sssssjjjj1

' How do you sleep at night knowing what a traitor you are to the people. I can only pray there is a place for people who sell out their own kind. Your karma will get you. Pathetic excuse for a human being. Maybe you are an alien.'
godbluffvdgg

''Either way f off or I'll make some calls and have your life changed.''

'You go to hell you propagandist traitor'
dieyoubastards

'YOU ARE A *********** TRAITOR! I DON''T LIKE TRAITORS.
ANYONE WHO HAS LOOKED AT ALL THE EVIDENCE ABOUT 9/11 CAN COME AWAY WITH NO OTHER CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB FROM START TO FINISH.

YOU DENY THE VERY FACTS THAT PROVE IT! LIKE THE ADMITTED - BY NIST NO LESS - FREE-FALL SPEED OF THE COLLAPSES OF ALL THREE BUILDINGS! THIS FACT ALONE PROVES BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT IT WAS CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

SO YOU DENY THAT FACT AND LIE YOUR SILLY ASS OFF THINKING YOUR KOOL-AID DRINKING FOLLOWERS AT THE "AMAZING RANDI" MESSAGE BOARD WILL DRINK IT! HA! WHEN WE TAKE THIS COUNTRY BACK I WANT TO SEE YOU PUT ON TRIAL FOR AIDING AND ABETTING TREASON, MY FINE FEATHERED FRIEND!

I WANT TO SEE YOU BEHIND BARS SERVING A LIFE STRETCH AT MARION! YOU GOT THAT?'
uhlijohn

 

[alienentity]

That's just a small sample of the violent and abusive messages you get when you try to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.

I'm quite sure Tony Z was unaware of the malevolent paranoia which dominates the 9/11 Truth movement. At least he know has that knowledge, although I doubt he will make much use of it.

 

[alienentity]

We're talking about the concept of an iceberg sinking a ship (has happened) and the concept of fire collapsing a steel sky scraper (has not happened except for 9/11 of course)

Hahaha. No, we're talking about fire destroying a steel building vs icebergs sinking steel ships.

Nice try at shifting the goalposts though. Many steel buildings have failed in fires, and certainly ships prior to the Titanic had sunk due to icebergs. Had a ship with the design of Titanic sunk before? Certainly not.
Nor had a building or buildings of the WTC's designs failed before. That cannot possibly mean that it couldn't happen, and happen the way it did, due to fires and other damage.

Your objections and equivocations are not succeeding.

 

[GlennB]

The most humorous was one loon shouting in full caps in an e-mail that "WEIGHT IS NOT A FORCE!!!!"

You should bear in mind that Szamboti is not far from being that class of scientist, given his claims that static objects are accelerating at g and that the EMP might have fallen off sideways.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Why don't y'all cut the crap and figure out how much a 53' 4" W24x55 floor beam would sag between 600^oC and 700^oC in 1 degree increments? Use all those degrees you say you have.

Put up or all your bla-bla about Tony's calcs is just a cover for the fact that not one of you guys knows how.

Please specify the in-service live load, the dead load, any point loads acting on the beam, the connection types at both ends of the beam and the material of the beam. If the floor is composite, please specify the angle of the flutes in relation to the flange, the thickness of the decking, the spacing of the flutes, the depth of the flutes, the height of concrete over the top of flute, the width of the flutes, the type of shear studs, the size of shear stud, the expected height of the head of the shear studs above the flutes and the compressive strength of the concrete.

 

[triforcharity]

Please specify the in-service live load, the dead load, any point loads acting on the beam, the connection types at both ends of the beam and the material of the beam. If the floor is composite, please specify the angle of the flutes in relation to the flange, the thickness of the decking, the spacing of the flutes, the depth of the flutes, the height of concrete over the top of flute, the width of the flutes, the type of shear studs, the size of shear stud, the expected height of the head of the shear studs above the flutes and the compressive strength of the concrete.

Lol! C7 will ignore this, and repeat his assertions that it's "technobabble".

 

[LSSBB]

Please specify the in-service live load, the dead load, any point loads acting on the beam, the connection types at both ends of the beam and the material of the beam. If the floor is composite, please specify the angle of the flutes in relation to the flange, the thickness of the decking, the spacing of the flutes, the depth of the flutes, the height of concrete over the top of flute, the width of the flutes, the type of shear studs, the size of shear stud, the expected height of the head of the shear studs above the flutes and the compressive strength of the concrete.

Let's not forget, the distribution of the manufacturing variabilties of length, width, height, skew torsion, material distribution of all physical members, the impact of wind, the actual degree of spalling of all concrete surfaces impacting the steel members, the presence of internal fracturing and voids in all physical members, variabilities in as-built quality of all welds, threaded and non - threaded fasteners, the effects of wind on the sail area of the building causing tilt and tortion, vibrational analysis from other cataclysmic events . . .

And so on.

But then again, I don't have the burden of proof, do I? Who has to take this to The Man and get his voice heard? Not me. I'm just a schmoe on the internet, giving Tony (or C7, if they are a team) the value of my expertise in validating his case. Should he go anywhere out there in legal land with his conjectures, it should be bullet proof before it hits a phalanx of PhDs, no?

 

[tfk]

So tell us who has hurt the people you mention being hurt due to their position on what occurred on 911 and what court cases were brought as a result of it.

Do you consider constant harassment to fall into the category of "hurt"?
I do.

Do you consider threats against one's life to fall into that category?
I do. It forces one to change one's attitude towards strangers & chance meetings with people.

Every one of the people that I cited (including me) has stories about people harassing them and/or threatening them.

Regardless of whether or not you choose to believe that.

Has anyone threatened or hurt official story supporters who give their names like Ryan Mackey, Ron Wieck, Dave Thomas, or Zdenek Bazant?

What a brain-dead attempt at an argument, Tony.

Doesn't matter one iota.

Any more than the obvious fact that none of those four select individuals have been murdered negates the existence of murder.

I brought up the names of people who have explicitly stated that they have been harassed or threatened.

Why don't you ask those people if they've been hurt?
Why are you asking me about these four individuals?

It sounds like you can't provide that part of the information and are just out here yapping away like a big anonymous blowhard again.

Ahhh, now I see why you are asking me.

You want to get back to the "anonymous" point again.

Well, when you've got no other arrow in your quiver…

LoL.