Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[bookworm]

And there's a far more obvious reason for Martin to run from Zimmerman - namely Zimmerman was obviously staring at Martin, and had pulled over his car to the side of the road in order to do so.

Which gets us back to the central point - when Martin was standing around, he was suspicious. When he was walking around, he was suspicious. When he ran from a guy who was strangely staring at him, he was suspicious. It seems like there was absolutely nothing he could have done, that would not have been seen as "suspicious" by Zimmerman.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately, the burglaries made for a situation where people just seemed suspicious.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

There's a word for what you are full of here.

"Here" on JREF, that is called a personal attack.

Point taken, I tried to change it to "for what you are maybe perhaps full of" so that I could say "nowhere did I say you actually were, just maybe perhaps were". Unfortunately the time to add that crucial distinction has expired, and the post can no longer be edited. But I now want to be clear, I meant maybe perhaps.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r632/DiwataMan/George Zimmerman Photos/DSC_0005.jpg

That shot shows that TM's body is really not far from the T intersection.

 

[Dan O.]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r632/DiwataMan/George Zimmerman Photos/DSC_0005.jpg

That shot shows that TM's body is really not far from the T intersection.

Yep, not a far distance at all for George to have wandered while hunting for that ******* that appeared to have gotten away. But it is a very long way off the path back to his truck if all he did was cross to Retreat View Circle and head back. When are we going to hear the truth from George about what happened that night?

 

[GWCarver]

Yep, not a far distance at all for George to have wandered while hunting for that ******* that appeared to have gotten away. But it is a very long way off the path back to his truck if all he did was cross to Retreat View Circle and head back. When are we going to hear the truth from George about what happened that night?

"I observed a key chain lying on the grass near the T portion of the walkway, a black flashlight lying on the grass just east of the key chain."

- Officer Joseph Santiago

 

[Dan O.]

"I observed a key chain lying on the grass near the T portion of the walkway, a black flashlight lying on the grass just east of the key chain."

- Officer Joseph Santiago

"Near" the tee is relative. We have seen the photos showing exactly where those objects were. The question is: How does this evidence fit with what George claims happened that night?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

"Near" the tee is relative. We have seen the photos showing exactly where those objects were. The question is: How does this evidence fit with what George claims happened that night?

I don't know - do you have a link to Georges claims of what happened that night ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And there's a far more obvious reason for Martin to run from Zimmerman - namely Zimmerman was obviously staring at Martin, and had pulled over his car to the side of the road in order to do so.
.

So, at the time TM ran away, GZ wasn't actually following him ?

He was sitting in his car, talking on the phone in a residential subdivision.
That is super scary stalking ? Oh no, someone was responsible and pulled over to make a phone call ? And then maybe TM was suspicious, maybe because GZ was staring at him ? So TM decided he needed to run ?

I don't get it ... why did TM run in the first place ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

That is super scary stalking?

But maybe it was a really, really scary stare like this?



And don't you know that GZ being suspicious was some type of horrible crime? I learned that from reading this thread.

 

[Moss]

Would you please remind us again how walking slowly while talking on the phone is a suspicious action that needs to be reported to the police again? If we are going by that standard you apply to GZ that is.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

We've already gone over the absolutely vague descriptions of what constitutes 'suspicious activity' in neighborhood watch circles. Walking slowly. Looking at cars or house. Walking through the grass instead of the using the sidewalk. Blame the neighborhood watch programs for turning all that into suspicious activity.

Would you please remind us again how walking slowly while talking on the phone is a suspicious action that needs to be reported to the police again? If we are going by that standard you apply to GZ that is.

Sometimes the highway road signs used to have a big message ' report all suspicious activity to xxx-xxxxx ' without ever defining what suspicious activity was. At some point, we probably have to agree that it is a subjective thing, and what one person may deem suspicious, another may not.

GZ thought TM was on drugs and found him to be suspicious. Maybe it was a hunch ? Intuition ? Premonition ?

 

[Amazer]

So, at the time TM ran away, GZ wasn't actually following him ?

He was sitting in his car, talking on the phone in a residential subdivision.
That is super scary stalking ? Oh no, someone was responsible and pulled over to make a phone call ? And then maybe TM was suspicious, maybe because GZ was staring at him ? So TM decided he needed to run ?

I don't get it ... why did TM run in the first place ?

Well, one thing is for certain. TM isn't around to tell us.

 

[Moss]

Given that we don't know why TM ran I find the insistence that it can't have been exactly the same kind of gut feeling to be somewhat dishonest, especially with the speculation that he must have had some illegal or semi legal reason to run. Polarization without substance isn't exactly what I'd call skeptical.
Lone guy sitting in his car and staring at me would make me wonder if he is a dealer or a mugger. (I had the "fortune" to encounter to encounter all kind of crooks in my life so far.) If that goes on long enough I'd get out of dodge.
Especially when nothing's there to tell me that the guy is part of a neighborhood watch program (or whatever relation GZ actually had).

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Given that we don't know why TM ran I find the insistence that it can't have been exactly the same kind of gut feeling to be somewhat dishonest, especially with the speculation that he must have had some illegal or semi legal reason to run. Polarization without substance isn't exactly what I'd call skeptical.
Lone guy sitting in his car and staring at me would make me wonder if he is a dealer or a mugger. (I had the "fortune" to encounter to encounter all kind of crooks in my life so far.) If that goes on long enough I'd get out of dodge.
Especially when nothing's there to tell me that the guy is part of a neighborhood watch program (or whatever relation GZ actually had).

I searched for posts matching the highlighted part. I couldn't find them. People throughout the thread (myself included) have on occasion speculated about all manner of things.

I don't know why TM ran. Maybe you are right, the same type of 'gut feeling' as GZ perhaps had.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Well, one thing is for certain. TM isn't around to tell us.

Right, so we'll have to use the evidence to help us deduce why he ran.

Or do you believe that anything that happened that evening is totally unfathomable because TM is dead ? If so, GZ should skate right through any hearing, right ?

 

[GWCarver]

Given that we don't know why TM ran I find the insistence that it can't have been exactly the same kind of gut feeling to be somewhat dishonest, especially with the speculation that he must have had some illegal or semi legal reason to run. Polarization without substance isn't exactly what I'd call skeptical.
Lone guy sitting in his car and staring at me would make me wonder if he is a dealer or a mugger. (I had the "fortune" to encounter to encounter all kind of crooks in my life so far.) If that goes on long enough I'd get out of dodge.
Especially when nothing's there to tell me that the guy is part of a neighborhood watch program (or whatever relation GZ actually had).

So, if you were scared because you thought he was a dealer or a mugger, wouldn't you try to get away rather than walk in his direction and circle his truck?

There could be several reasons TM decided to run, but I am inclined to believe there is only one realistic reason he returned to the "T", that being to confront Zimmerman. I would say that returning to the "T" means he wasn't really scared after all.

 

[Dan O.]

There could be several reasons TM decided to run, but I am inclined to believe there is only one realistic reason he returned to the "T", that being to confront Zimmerman. I would say that returning to the "T" means he wasn't really scared after all.

How do you deduce that Trayvon knew that George would be at the tee?

 

[Amazer]

Right, so we'll have to use the evidence to help us deduce why he ran.

Or do you believe that anything that happened that evening is totally unfathomable because TM is dead ? If so, GZ should skate right through any hearing, right ?

I certainly don't believe that. But from what I've seen thus far I've seen exactly zero evidence that TM engaged in illegal or suspicious behaviour that evening and some evidence that GZ was determined not to let this one get away (as per his conversation with the dispatcher).

If I then add the failure of GZ to clarify his position (as member of the local NW) and his purpose (for following TM) when addressed by TM; I can only conclude that what transpired that night is solely caused by GZ.

So no, I don't think that GZ should skate right through any hearing. I think that GZ bears full responsibility and should be prosecuted. Just not sure on which charge though.

 

[LTC8K6]

How do you deduce that Trayvon knew that George would be at the tee?

That's an interesting thought.

Does TM know? Or is TM at a place where he can still see GZ?

Logically if GZ were to try to see where TM went, he'd end up at the T at some point. GZ knows TM went that way in general. TM knows that GZ would likely come that way.

Does TM know GZ got out of the vehicle? How?

Also logically, TM should already have run home and should be unable to see what GZ does or where GZ goes.

So, why do the two meet?

We know why GZ is there. He's either looking for sign of TM and/or looking for a house number.

What I don't know is why TM is there.

 

[Mumbles]

So, if you were scared because you thought he was a dealer or a mugger, wouldn't you try to get away rather than walk in his direction and circle his truck?

The whole "Martin circled Zimmerman's truck" thing is interesting. First, it's not actually aggressive, considering the circumstances, so much as it is strange. Second, even if it were, the fact that Martin then ran basically negates it. And third, Zimmerman completely fails to note it in his own police call, even though he's reporting "suspicious" behavior that actually sounds like just some guy walking down the street. Based n all of the above, I assume it didn't actually happen. It sounds more like Martin walked towards Zimmerman's truck because Zimmerman was between him and his house, saw him staring at him, and ran because he wasn't interested in trouble.

There could be several reasons TM decided to run, but I am inclined to believe there is only one realistic reason he returned to the "T", that being to confront Zimmerman. I would say that returning to the "T" means he wasn't really scared after all.

I have to agree with Dan O. There's no reason to think that Marin knew Zimmerman would be where the fight took place, and so no reason for him to double back on the person that he had previously ran from.