If the fires were unfought, I would certainly be seriously worried. Even in the case of One Meridian Plaza there was a big worry of a pancake collapse. In One New York Plaza some floors collapsed and just by luck, the reporters say, they didn't bring other floors with them and cause a progressive collapse. Fires are possibly the #1 cause of collapses. Despite your argument from incredulity, people who know better than you predicted the collapse of the towers as I have already noted, and the collapse of WTC7 as is noted elsewhere. That anonymous engineer was probably not the only one who gave the alert, and definitely not the only one who figured the risk of collapse was practically a certainty (or, at a minimum, the safest assumption to announce - if it collapsed having announced it wouldn't, the responsibilities could be big; in the opposite case, not so much). When I heard late in the evening (the collapse happened at 11:20 pm local Spanish time) that that building was still burning and there was concern that it could collapse as well, I wasn't surprised in the least. If you were surprised by the collapse, I'd say you lack a grasp on reality about the effects of fires in buildings.
WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44
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dafydd
Banned
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You have spoken to ''most people'' about this? I am one of those most people and I know what happened on 911. Plane crashes and fires.
dafydd
Banned
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Have truthers ever heard of this thing called gravity?
Redwood
Graduate Poster
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You mean aluminum and iron oxide. Aluminum oxide and iron won't do anything. Those damned laws of thermodynamics and all.
Here's a good one. Obviously, Paricutin volcano does not exist. Prior to Feb. 20, 1943, no farmer's field ever had a volcano form in it. And it's never happened since.
Again your analogy is horrible, at best. I'm going to take a wild guess and say ships did sink before by hitting an iceberg. Sounds crazy but it just might be true. As far as the mystery engineer goes, I meant a cordial interview. But your more rigorous approach does bring something to mind. I wonder how long he would last under "enhanced" interrogation techniques. In terms of these poor innocent people being libeled/slandered, we have a court system, they can sue. Makes you wonder why no one has? I mean if someone even made a connotation that I was involved I would sue. Even if I couldn't prove monetary damages, and may not be able to win the case, I still would want to make it clear I was in no way involved. I wouldn't want a single cent, I just would want to clear my name. I'd hope most people would feel that way.
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alienentity
Illuminator
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Actually, it was common belief that the Titanic was 'unsinkable'. Yes, not factually or technically correct, but that's what many believed. Just as people like you cannot fathom (pun intended) that 3 or more buildings could collapse from one attack.
You might not agree with reality, but you're just another wrong person in a long history of wrong-thinking people. That's what it is.
'It seems incredible to us today that anyone could believe that 70,000 tonnes of steel could be unsinkable, but that was exactly what people in 1912 believed.'
'Passenger Margaret Devaney said "I took passage on the Titanic for I thought it would be a safe steamship and I had heard it could not sink."
Another passenger, Thomson Beattie, wrote home "We are changing ships and coming home in a new unsinkable boat."'
Just as most 9/11 Truthers fervently (and wrongly) believe that the twin towers were designed to survive an airplane hit at 600mph, and thus 'could not possibly' collapse from this or fires, so people believed the Titanic was invincible.
'On June 1, 1911, the Irish News and Belfast Morning News contained a report on the launching of Titanic's hull. The article described the system of watertight compartments and electronic watertight doors and concluded that Titanic was practically unsinkable.'
http://historyonthenet.com/Titanic/unsinkable.htm
But clearly Titanic wasn't unsinkable...... was it also a giant unseen conspiracy using nanothermite? Of course not, it was just bad judgement and an iceberg.
And the WTC collapses were not necessarily foreseeable until it was too late to save them, but in WTC 7's case nobody was killed because of the correct judgement of FDNY that it would likely collapse.
You truthers incorrectly interpret this correct response to the attack as somehow suspicious, because your judgement is severely compromised by paranoia and bias. It's your attitudes which need to change, not the facts.
We're talking about the concept of an iceberg sinking a ship (has happened) and the concept of fire collapsing a steel sky scraper (has not happened except for 9/11 of course)
Why is it a legal requirement to coat structural steel in buildings with fire-resistant material if fires cannot threaten such buildings?
erwinl
Illuminator
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But that should mean that there was a first ship ever that sunk from hitting an iceberg?
Could that ship have sunk, because it never had happened before at that time?
No. We're talking about either:
- the concept of an iceberg sinking a ship (has happened) and the concept of fire collapsing a building (has happened)
- the concept of an iceberg sinking a passenger liner designed to withstand impacts with icebergs (didn't happen before RMS Titanic) and the concept of fire collapsing a steel framed skyscraper (didn't happen before 9/11)
ozeco41
Philosopher
Can someone send me a PM when this thread moves back on topic?
I have an unfinished discussion with Tony Sz. and it is not about icebergs, Titanics or any of the other nonsense that tmd2_1 has successfully derailed the topic into.
Congratulations to tmd2_1 BTW.
I don't agree with trolling or derailing BUT I do (sort of) admire (just a little bit) those who are successful at it. Especially those who do it without expending any energy or revealing any intellectual skill.
I have an unfinished discussion with Tony Sz. and it is not about icebergs, Titanics or any of the other nonsense that tmd2_1 has successfully derailed the topic into.
Congratulations to tmd2_1 BTW.
I don't agree with trolling or derailing BUT I do (sort of) admire (just a little bit) those who are successful at it. Especially those who do it without expending any energy or revealing any intellectual skill.
ozeco41
Philosopher
Tony;
I am not avoiding this post but have been standing back as the thread has been reduced to off topic trivialities. I can see no benefit in trying to undertake reasoned discussion of a topic whilst the majority of posting is chasing off topic derails introduced by a person who has no understanding of our discussion and is trolling very effectively.
Now refering briefly to our ongoing discussion there is a pivotal point which I hesitate to go beyond without your agreement. It is IMO fundamental to the difference between us and it is this:
You have made a claim that NIST is wrong. I say it is your responsibility to support or "prove" your claim. You have not accepted that responsibility. That responsibility includes support of the assumptions on which you base your claim.
It is not my responsibility to either prove NOR disprove your assumptions.
What I have done is to identify one essential assumption which you have not supported. That is all I need to do to show that your claim is UNPROVEN. NOTE carefully I do not say "WRONG" merely "UNPROVEN". But you cannot make your claim till you prove it. And I have used "prove' and "unproven" etc for shorthand many times because I cannot be bothered using pseudo scientific constructs hedging the language for the pedants who insist on "scientific method and language".
There is a far bigger issue ahead of us if we do agree the foundation assumptions and premises. Wrong - not "a" singular issue but many of them....but no point me drawing out the logical path that will follow if you will not even agree to the starting line. So I leave it there for now.
And I will wait till the fate of the Titanic has been decided and some common sense has emerged on the "it cannot happen because it has never happened before" typical truther crap...
Cheers.
Sunstealer
Illuminator
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- 3,128
He'll never answer that because if he acknowledges that fact it blows his whole "can't collapse due to fire" nonsense out of the water.
tmd2_1 doesn't have any experience in engineering. In fact I doubt he's ever met an engineer. If he had done some background reading he would know that engineers make predictions on a daily basis using their experience and knowledge to assess data.
The headline reads - Engineer Does What Engineers Do Shocker!
Only someone caught up in the paranoia of 9/11 conspiracy will see an engineer doing his job as something suspicious.
Sunstealer
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Infact the human race doesn't exist. It's impossible for it to exist because no-one has ever had sex before. Can't happen because things that happen for the first time can't happen.
Some idiot even came up with the nonsensical phrase "there's a first time for everything".
The "first time in history" canard is hilariously stupid but remember we are dealing with truthers and that is about the level of their thinking. It's quite pathetic.
Or, y'know, the hundreds of thousands in the ASCE, which endorsed it.
Illuminist14
Student
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- 40
To be fair, not many buildings are like WTC 7 structurally, and also the situation which included little or no water supply to stop the fires, and the fact it burned for several hours un-fought is something that is seldom seen.
Clayton Moore
Banned
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- 7,508
What's truly stupid is the completeness of the so called collapse.
tmd,
You have no feeling for, sense of, engineers & engineering.
You should stop trying to assert what they can and cannot do.
Oh, if only you really intended to stop. But we both know that this statement is false.
You will continue going around & around & around in circles with anyone who disagrees with you.
The Hamster Wheel of Stupid.
Yup, I choose to do so. Because I've seen it with my own eyes. I've even done it on hundreds of occasions. (And have been right often enough that they still give me a sizable paycheck & call me an engineer.)
One famous example: the engineers at Morton-Thiokol predicted that the shuttle Challenger had a significant chance to blow up if they launched it that cold day in 1986. Even tho it had never happened before. They felt strongly enough that they refused to sign the launch authorization, even under tremendous pressure from management.
Care to reply to this incident? All details of the event are explicitly documented.
You never would have predicted the catastrophe.
"Most people" would never have predicted it.
Do you understand that some educated, specialized, experienced people may possess knowledge that you, and most people, do not?
Not 1 person in 1000 is a mechanical or structural engineer (or firefighters).
Who gives a flying fart what that 99.9% of the population think would or would not happen.
Now let's get to the structural & mechanical engineers & firefighters.
Not 1 in 1000 of those people are truthers.
Starting to get the picture?
No, I strongly suspect not. I suspect that, unless I can produce a signed document with all of their names on it, then you'll continue to write the same clap-trap: "Most people don't know that a 3rd tower collapsed that day…" Drivel.
You've finally said something right.
Yes, I choose to believe it.
And, yes, since I'm a mechanical engineer, it is "my business".
Thanks for recognizing that point.
Btw, i do not believe that he gave any precision to the time estimate. I think that part of the story may have "ripened" over time. I also believe that if he had said, "Jeez, I don't know. Maybe 2 hours, maybe 5 hours", then if had come down anywhere between 1 & 8 hours later, the firefighter may well have evaluated the estimate as "pretty much right on the mark".
YES THEY HAVE BEEN "hurt in some way". A significant number of the people that have been perceived by truthers, with zero evidence, as possibly "part of the conspiracy" have been hounded mercilessly for years.
Jane Standley
Reporter McIntyre
Ms. McClatchy (??), photographer of "End of Innocence" in Shanksville
Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien, pilot of C130 at Pentagon
Mark Roberts
the families of the airline passengers
Larry Silverstein
Principle engineers at NIST
… and lots more.
ALL of the above have told explicit stories of being stalked, harassed, etc. for years.
… oh yeah, including me.
(I was stalked to my home town internet board by some bona fide crazy truther lady, who went to a lot of effort in a (gratefully) futile effort to find out who I am. She also threatened to shoot me.)
You see, the situation AIN'T symmetric. It doesn't matter that Tony Szamboti & Richard Gage, et al, disclose their names. They are just idiots & fools. And the sane people will simply blow them off & tolerate them for the idiots & fools that they are.
But the truth movement is littered with crazies. From Judy Wood (harmless) to Balsamo (who bragged that it would be his pleasure to put a bullet in Mark Robert's brain), to my crazy lady.
The asymmetry is that truthers are dealing with (mostly) sane people in the debunker camp.
We are dealing with (mostly) sane people, but with a significant percent of crazies, in the Truther camp.
Sorry to break it to you. You should be more careful about the people with whom you get into bed. You've caught a new form of STD: Socially Transmitted Dementia.
You have no feeling for, sense of, engineers & engineering.
You should stop trying to assert what they can and cannot do.
Oh, if only you really intended to stop. But we both know that this statement is false.
You will continue going around & around & around in circles with anyone who disagrees with you.
The Hamster Wheel of Stupid.
Yup, I choose to do so. Because I've seen it with my own eyes. I've even done it on hundreds of occasions. (And have been right often enough that they still give me a sizable paycheck & call me an engineer.)
One famous example: the engineers at Morton-Thiokol predicted that the shuttle Challenger had a significant chance to blow up if they launched it that cold day in 1986. Even tho it had never happened before. They felt strongly enough that they refused to sign the launch authorization, even under tremendous pressure from management.
Care to reply to this incident? All details of the event are explicitly documented.
You never would have predicted the catastrophe.
"Most people" would never have predicted it.
Do you understand that some educated, specialized, experienced people may possess knowledge that you, and most people, do not?
Not 1 person in 1000 is a mechanical or structural engineer (or firefighters).
Who gives a flying fart what that 99.9% of the population think would or would not happen.
Now let's get to the structural & mechanical engineers & firefighters.
Not 1 in 1000 of those people are truthers.
Starting to get the picture?
No, I strongly suspect not. I suspect that, unless I can produce a signed document with all of their names on it, then you'll continue to write the same clap-trap: "Most people don't know that a 3rd tower collapsed that day…" Drivel.
You've finally said something right.
Yes, I choose to believe it.
And, yes, since I'm a mechanical engineer, it is "my business".
Thanks for recognizing that point.
Btw, i do not believe that he gave any precision to the time estimate. I think that part of the story may have "ripened" over time. I also believe that if he had said, "Jeez, I don't know. Maybe 2 hours, maybe 5 hours", then if had come down anywhere between 1 & 8 hours later, the firefighter may well have evaluated the estimate as "pretty much right on the mark".
YES THEY HAVE BEEN "hurt in some way". A significant number of the people that have been perceived by truthers, with zero evidence, as possibly "part of the conspiracy" have been hounded mercilessly for years.
Jane Standley
Reporter McIntyre
Ms. McClatchy (??), photographer of "End of Innocence" in Shanksville
Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien, pilot of C130 at Pentagon
Mark Roberts
the families of the airline passengers
Larry Silverstein
Principle engineers at NIST
… and lots more.
ALL of the above have told explicit stories of being stalked, harassed, etc. for years.
… oh yeah, including me.
(I was stalked to my home town internet board by some bona fide crazy truther lady, who went to a lot of effort in a (gratefully) futile effort to find out who I am. She also threatened to shoot me.)
You see, the situation AIN'T symmetric. It doesn't matter that Tony Szamboti & Richard Gage, et al, disclose their names. They are just idiots & fools. And the sane people will simply blow them off & tolerate them for the idiots & fools that they are.
But the truth movement is littered with crazies. From Judy Wood (harmless) to Balsamo (who bragged that it would be his pleasure to put a bullet in Mark Robert's brain), to my crazy lady.
The asymmetry is that truthers are dealing with (mostly) sane people in the debunker camp.
We are dealing with (mostly) sane people, but with a significant percent of crazies, in the Truther camp.
Sorry to break it to you. You should be more careful about the people with whom you get into bed. You've caught a new form of STD: Socially Transmitted Dementia.
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NoahFence
Banned
So called collapse? You're now questioning if there was a collapse at all?
Kiddo....just stop.
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