Why would a perfect god create?

[JoeMorgue]

So the concept of God is so illogical it's meaningless to even discuss it?

Now you get it. You see you can understand God enough so that you can know with 100% certainty how he wants you and other people to live their lives, you can know his innermost thoughts and desires even after being filtered through thousands of years of bad translation after bad translation, you can proudly and happily claim it's the most powerful influence on your life and you ask his guidance on every decision you make....

... But discuss him? Why that's just crazy talk! Everyone knows God is completely unknowable!

 

[PiedPiper]

iow gwimw.

I wouldn't even agree with that. I would say that we simply don't have the language (vocabulary might be more accurate, I dunno) to describe what God does. Mysterious is a human term, and although it's geared towards describing things which are unknown / a mystery, those are human words / concepts as well.

I just don't think it's possible to accurately describe the reasons why (a) God would or would not do anything. We can't even accurately describe what he would / would not want us to do. If we don't have the right syntax and words to use, we can't form the sentence, and so we have to rely on incomplete - and (I'm sure) in some cases, completely wrong - human interpretations of what God wants for us. It's like me when I try to describe the nerve pain I have in my leg. Doctors ask me all the time....is it a stabbing pain? A throbbing pain? A tingling pain? There's not really a word that 100% accurately reflects what I feel. I think the same is true re: my feelings towards God and his desires for me. Even the "clear cut" instructions given in holy texts are anything but, and are sometimes contradictory to other passages. Humans had to filter something unfathomable into something they could put on paper.

Anyone who chooses to believe in a God has to decide for themselves what to believe, and what God wants for them. I think a lot of them go "along with the crowd" and identify with a particular faith (a bit of groupthink going on maybe), but I have no evidence that any one religion is any more accurate than any other. All I have is my own feelings about God that are internal and can't accurately be vocalized, no matter how hard I try. All I can do is attempt to live my life in a way that is consistent with what I "feel" God wants for me.

Anyways, the OP raises an interesting set of points but (in my opinion) the very nature of God makes the questions impossible to answer. Any words that people try to share about God are handicapped by the lack of accurate expressions we could use to describe something that is so far beyond us.

 

[Ignosticist]

The problems / paradoxes might be coming from our limited language trying to force human ideals and definitions on something that is so far out of our league as to be undescribable.

And, therefore, ignosticism is the only rational answer to the question of the existence (or definition) of God: Mu

 

[Ignosticist]

apathy is a deadly sin, to do a sin is evil, so if god is apathetic, god is evil

I'm sorry if this came up, but I'm not sure how lack of action is malevolent. Malevolence, at least to me, seems to imply a certain level of activity. If God can stop evil, but doesn't, he's at most apathetic. Not that that makes it any less terrible for us people down here who need to deal with evil, but it does mean he's not being actively out for our blood.

Apathy is, (at least by christianity standards) evil. It is one of the Seven deadly sins: Sloth.

So, if god is apathetic, god is evil.

 

[Bikewer]

At least the Hindus have te good grace to maintain that their particular vision of God is indeed unknowable.
But the Abrahamic faiths tend to go on and on in great detail as to God's characteristics, likes, dislikes and favorite ice cream flavor......

 

[tsig]

]I wouldn't even agree with that. I would say that we simply don't have the language (vocabulary might be more accurate, I dunno) to describe what God does.[/HILITE] Mysterious is a human term, and although it's geared towards describing things which are unknown / a mystery, those are human words / concepts as well.

I just don't think it's possible to accurately describe the reasons why (a) God would or would not do anything. We can't even accurately describe what he would / would not want us to do. If we don't have the right syntax and words to use, we can't form the sentence, and so we have to rely on incomplete - and (I'm sure) in some cases, completely wrong - human interpretations of what God wants for us. It's like me when I try to describe the nerve pain I have in my leg. Doctors ask me all the time....is it a stabbing pain? A throbbing pain? A tingling pain? There's not really a word that 100% accurately reflects what I feel. I think the same is true re: my feelings towards God and his desires for me. Even the "clear cut" instructions given in holy texts are anything but, and are sometimes contradictory to other passages. Humans had to filter something unfathomable into something they could put on paper.

Anyone who chooses to believe in a God has to decide for themselves what to believe, and what God wants for them. I think a lot of them go "along with the crowd" and identify with a particular faith (a bit of groupthink going on maybe), but I have no evidence that any one religion is any more accurate than any other. All I have is my own feelings about God that are internal and can't accurately be vocalized, no matter how hard I try. All I can do is attempt to live my life in a way that is consistent with what I "feel" God wants for me.

Anyways, the OP raises an interesting set of points but (in my opinion) the very nature of God makes the questions impossible to answer. Any words that people try to share about God are handicapped by the lack of accurate expressions we could use to describe something that is so far beyond us.

How can you know what god wants for you when you just said god is beyond human understanding?

 

[I Ratant]

While I'm pretty much with you on this, pagan deities, themselves (most often, but not always) rising out of the original chaos, themselves being a mix of good and evil, could create a universe. As to whether they should be worshipped, should they exist, or even if they would really care about such an issue, that's another story.

Of course, a God who would either demand or expect to be worshipped really couldn't be perfect, based on his ego-drivin desire. In the OT, Yahweh evolves by degrees from a very imperfect, henotheistic deity, one who is jealous and vindictive, to a universal God. I'm reminded, thinking about such deity, of the sequence in Monty Python and the Holy Grail when God appears to King Arthur and his knights and becomes irritable with Arthur when the later averts his eyes. A God who is perfect, or nearly so, wouldn't have to have everyone groveling befor Him / Her.

.
I happened on an old "Hercules, the Adventures" couple nights back, where Herc tells his father Zeus that he got it wrong.
Those old Greek gods were too much human, not enough Cosmic Muffin, as YHWH became in the NT.
The evolution from Hairy Thunderer to CM is pretty obvious, as is the really nasty old men telling the tales in the OT just declaiming a lot of wishful thinking and hate.

 

[I Ratant]

I wouldn't even agree with that. I would say that we simply don't have the language (vocabulary might be more accurate, I dunno) to describe what God does. Mysterious is a human term, and although it's geared towards describing things which are unknown / a mystery, those are human words / concepts as well.

I just don't think it's possible to accurately describe the reasons why (a) God would or would not do anything. We can't even accurately describe what he would / would not want us to do. If we don't have the right syntax and words to use, we can't form the sentence, and so we have to rely on incomplete - and (I'm sure) in some cases, completely wrong - human interpretations of what God wants for us. It's like me when I try to describe the nerve pain I have in my leg. Doctors ask me all the time....is it a stabbing pain? A throbbing pain? A tingling pain? There's not really a word that 100% accurately reflects what I feel. I think the same is true re: my feelings towards God and his desires for me. ...

.
Wouldn't his desires be your unrestricted limitless boundless worship of him by you?
So's that you avoid what he'll do to you if you don't knuckle under?
Fear instead of worship?

 

[PiedPiper]

Well, it's exactly what I said. I believe that God is benevolent but is beyond our understanding. I think that we - as humans - have to decide for ourselves what we *think* God wants for us, using holy texts as well as personal experiences that have been filtered through our faulty human perceptions and methods of thinking. Lots of times we get the message / desire completely wrong, hence the interfaith conflict you sometimes see as well as despicable acts carried out with full faith on the criminals part that they're doing what God wants.

If God is all powerful, why doesn't he speak to us in a way that we can understand? Omnipotence is a big word, and it means a lot; God (assuming he exists, for the sake of argument) can do anything. Why he doesn't choose to appear to us right now, this instant, in a form that we can readily comprehend and understand, I really don't know. I don't know the reasons God does things. I just know that the history of religion is full of scholars "interpreting" God's word and attempting to carry out his wishes, often in opposition (friendly or otherwise) with other believers who think they're carrying out God's will.

For me, religion is a very personal thing. I believe in a benevolent diety, even though I have no proof and I often-times misinterpret what he wants me to do. I attempt to live my life the best way I know how, according to his wishes, or at least according to my understanding of his wishes. I can't offer up any evidence of his existence and I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's personal. I'm just commenting on the OP's post. I think trying to understand the reason God does things is futile, and anything that comes from God has to trickle down to our limited human understanding. I apologize in advance if this doesn't answer your question.

TLDR: I do my best to interpret God's will for myself, knowing full well I could be mistaken.

 

[I Ratant]

God doesn't do anything.
His self-appointed interpreters of the noises in their heads do all those nasty things that litter the OT in particular, and society in the years since.
One charismatic crazy man can induce all manner of genuine evil in his listeners/flock/parish/community.

 

[PiedPiper]

God doesn't do anything.
His self-appointed interpreters of the noises in their heads do all those nasty things that litter the OT in particular, and society in the years since.
One charismatic crazy man can induce all manner of genuine evil in his listeners/flock/parish/community.

I don't know that God doesn't do anything. I actually believe the opposite, that God is active in my life and is benevolent. I don't have any proof for that, which upsets the scientist in me, but I accept it. There's a feeling within me that there is an omnipotent being who cares about me very deeply and helps me through life. Some people might call that my imagination; some might call it mental illness; some people might call it heartburn. I call it God. It's personal to me, as I can't offer any proof of it. I think it's a positive thing, as I feel urged to care for those less fortunate and to lead a good life, a moral life. I can't say anything about it that will convince a nonbeliever to convert. It's just a feeling that I have strongly within me.

I agree 100% that people have interpreted God's will incorrectly over the years and in some cases have no belief at all, but simply use God as an excuse for all types of destructive behavior. And you're right, a charismatic leader can lead a group of people to ruin and catastrophe. It doesn't change my own personal belief that there is a benevolent omnipotent being who loves me and tries to guide me through life, even though I stumble just about every day. It's infuriating to some people, but please realize that I'm not trying to make anyone else choose my beliefs. I realize that my beliefs are not rational, and not scientifically sound, but I do see good coming from the things that I do, and I positively impact other peoples lives when I try to help them and care for them. It's something I feel led to do, and I won't try to convert anyone, but I will try to help them in any way that I can.

Anyways, this post is getting way off topic. One of my core beliefs is that we'll never know why a perfect God created something, because we'll never fully understand God. The fragments that I am able to glean from texts and from my own experiences, I try to use those to help other people. I'm satisfied with that.

 

[tsig]

Well, it's exactly what I said. I believe that God is benevolent but is beyond our understanding. I think that we - as humans - have to decide for ourselves what we *think* God wants for us, using holy texts as well as personal experiences that have been filtered through our faulty human perceptions and methods of thinking. Lots of times we get the message / desire completely wrong, hence the interfaith conflict you sometimes see as well as despicable acts carried out with full faith on the criminals part that they're doing what God wants.

If God is all powerful, why doesn't he speak to us in a way that we can understand? Omnipotence is a big word, and it means a lot; God (assuming he exists, for the sake of argument) can do anything. Why he doesn't choose to appear to us right now, this instant, in a form that we can readily comprehend and understand, I really don't know. I don't know the reasons God does things. I just know that the history of religion is full of scholars "interpreting" God's word and attempting to carry out his wishes, often in opposition (friendly or otherwise) with other believers who think they're carrying out God's will.

For me, religion is a very personal thing. I believe in a benevolent diety, even though I have no proof and I often-times misinterpret what he wants me to do. I attempt to live my life the best way I know how, according to his wishes, or at least according to my understanding of his wishes. I can't offer up any evidence of his existence and I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's personal. I'm just commenting on the OP's post. I think trying to understand the reason God does things is futile, and anything that comes from God has to trickle down to our limited human understanding. I apologize in advance if this doesn't answer your question.

TLDR: I do my best to interpret God's will for myself, knowing full well I could be mistaken.

Why do you assume there's a god and it cares what you do?

 

[PiedPiper]

I assume there's a God because I can feel him working in my life; I can feel his presence around me, urging me to live my life in a good fashion and to assist those in need. I feel its approval when I do what it asks of me - to live life in a responsible, respectable fashion, and to be the best human being that I can be. I feel its disapproval sometimes, when I don't live up to what it's urging me to do. The feelings are strong enough that I reached the belief in a deity.

As I mentioned before (maybe it was in the other thread) - some would call this my imagination, some would call it mental illness; I choose to call it God. I don't have any proof, and don't particular care to convince others to have the same feelings / beliefs that I do. My life and the lives of those around me have improved and benefited from the behavior I feel urged to pursue, and so I think it's a positive thing. I realize that many, many others have none of these feelings, and scoff at the very idea, and that's fine. Everyone should be free to live life in their own way. This is mine, and as ridiculous as it sounds when I try to describe it, I think it's a good way to live.

 

[mutile]

I assume there's a God because I can feel him working in my life; I can feel his presence around me, urging me to live my life in a good fashion and to assist those in need. I feel its approval when I do what it asks of me - to live life in a responsible, respectable fashion, and to be the best human being that I can be. I feel its disapproval sometimes, when I don't live up to what it's urging me to do. The feelings are strong enough that I reached the belief in a deity.

Do you believe atheists go to hell?

 

[tsig]

I assume there's a God because I can feel him working in my life; I can feel his presence around me, urging me to live my life in a good fashion and to assist those in need. I feel its approval when I do what it asks of me - to live life in a responsible, respectable fashion, and to be the best human being that I can be. I feel its disapproval sometimes, when I don't live up to what it's urging me to do. The feelings are strong enough that I reached the belief in a deity.

As I mentioned before (maybe it was in the other thread) - some would call this my imagination, some would call it mental illness; I choose to call it God. I don't have any proof, and don't particular care to convince others to have the same feelings / beliefs that I do. My life and the lives of those around me have improved and benefited from the behavior I feel urged to pursue, and so I think it's a positive thing. I realize that many, many others have none of these feelings, and scoff at the very idea, and that's fine. Everyone should be free to live life in their own way. This is mine, and as ridiculous as it sounds when I try to describe it, I think it's a good way to live.

Could that feeling be your own humanity? Is it too much for you to think that humans naturally care for humans without supernatural commands.

 

[TimCallahan]

I assume there's a God because I can feel him working in my life; I can feel his presence around me, urging me to live my life in a good fashion and to assist those in need. I feel its approval when I do what it asks of me - to live life in a responsible, respectable fashion, and to be the best human being that I can be. I feel its disapproval sometimes, when I don't live up to what it's urging me to do. The feelings are strong enough that I reached the belief in a deity.

As I mentioned before (maybe it was in the other thread) - some would call this my imagination, some would call it mental illness; I choose to call it God. I don't have any proof, and don't particular care to convince others to have the same feelings / beliefs that I do. My life and the lives of those around me have improved and benefited from the behavior I feel urged to pursue, and so I think it's a positive thing. I realize that many, many others have none of these feelings, and scoff at the very idea, and that's fine. Everyone should be free to live life in their own way. This is mine, and as ridiculous as it sounds when I try to describe it, I think it's a good way to live.

The problem here is that there is no objective way to test whether it's God, your imagination or mental illness. As to the last of these, we could perhaps, if we knew you personally, find out if you suffer from some reasonably testable mental aberration (thinking you're Napoleon, believing the Martians are reading your mind, etc.). Otherwise, how could we possibly tell an objective reality of God working in your life from a subjective belief on your part that God is working in your life?

 

[PiedPiper]

Do you believe atheists go to hell?

No, I don't believe that. I think that trying to live a good, productive life is a positive outcome, no matter what drives you to do that. For me, it's God. For an atheist, it might be their own self-determination or their own drive to improve themselves. I do believe that I'll be rewarded after death for the good deeds I perform while alive. I don't know what will happen to atheists after death, if anything. I'm pretty sure they won't be with me, because I feel I'm serving a Power and that one day I'll be called to join him. Someone who doesn't have the same beliefs, probably won't join him. I don't know where they will go, if they go anywhere. That's what I feel, and I realize it's not what most Christians feel. Again, it's my own personal views.

 

[PiedPiper]

Could that feeling be your own humanity? Is it too much for you to think that humans naturally care for humans without supernatural commands.

It certainly could be my own humanity. I can't rule that out. Either way, the outcome is positive. I haven't witnessed an external manifestation of any sort that would lead me to discard your hypothesis.

The problem here is that there is no objective way to test whether it's God, your imagination or mental illness. As to the last of these, we could perhaps, if we knew you personally, find out if you suffer from some reasonably testable mental aberration (thinking you're Napoleon, believing the Martians are reading your mind, etc.). Otherwise, how could we possibly tell an objective reality of God working in your life from a subjective belief on your part that God is working in your life?

I suppose there really is no way to tell if it's actually God working in my life, or just belief on my part. It really doesn't matter to me which is true; I'm comforted by what I feel, and regardless of it's source, it leads me to live what I feel is a better life.

 

[mutile]

No, I don't believe that. I think that trying to live a good, productive life is a positive outcome, no matter what drives you to do that.

So you don't get your beliefs from the bible, do you just make it up as you go along or based on what you wish were true?

 

[I Ratant]

I don't know that God doesn't do anything. I actually believe the opposite, that God is active in my life and is benevolent. I don't have any proof for that, which upsets the scientist in me, but I accept it. There's a feeling within me that there is an omnipotent being who cares about me very deeply and helps me through life. Some people might call that my imagination; some might call it mental illness; some people might call it heartburn. I call it God. It's personal to me, as I can't offer any proof of it. I think it's a positive thing, as I feel urged to care for those less fortunate and to lead a good life, a moral life. I can't say anything about it that will convince a nonbeliever to convert. It's just a feeling that I have strongly within me.

I agree 100% that people have interpreted God's will incorrectly over the years and in some cases have no belief at all, but simply use God as an excuse for all types of destructive behavior. And you're right, a charismatic leader can lead a group of people to ruin and catastrophe. It doesn't change my own personal belief that there is a benevolent omnipotent being who loves me and tries to guide me through life, even though I stumble just about every day. It's infuriating to some people, but please realize that I'm not trying to make anyone else choose my beliefs. I realize that my beliefs are not rational, and not scientifically sound, but I do see good coming from the things that I do, and I positively impact other peoples lives when I try to help them and care for them. It's something I feel led to do, and I won't try to convert anyone, but I will try to help them in any way that I can.

Anyways, this post is getting way off topic. One of my core beliefs is that we'll never know why a perfect God created something, because we'll never fully understand God. The fragments that I am able to glean from texts and from my own experiences, I try to use those to help other people. I'm satisfied with that.

.
Your god is just your common sense telling to not do things that will harm you and yours, and do things that will benefit you and yours.
Mackeral snappers have "corporal works of mercy" which garner brownie points at the Pearly Gates.
To feed the hungry.
To give drink to the thirsty.
To shelter the homeless.
To clothe the naked.
To visit and ransom the captive, (prisoners).
To visit the sick.
To bury the dead.
.
These are common sense things that caring people would and should do because it's just plain nice, with no thought or fear of anything beyond life.
These are pretty much universal in societies and cultures, regardless of their views of the supernatural.