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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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I see CM amd Dogzie still throwing out pointless ntohings as a distraction attempt and coming up with seer fantasies as evidence.

And again proving nothingthat they know how to use a search engine..

CM and DOgzie have you ever been to Deautschland?

I have several times and I am planning to live there, and the Germans yes the Geramns have addressed the holocaust and their forebears role in it over and over, they acknowledge what their ancestors did and have said sorry, they have had the guts to do that, have you the guts to admit your prattle here is vacuous insulting nonesense.

Insulting to the victims
Insulting to the nation that has the spine and backbone to admit what happened and make amends.
 
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I know that maintaining focus is a problem when your argument relies on obfuscation. But maintaining focus is the only way to have an intelligent discussion.

Projection is an ugly thing, Dogzilla, especially since you still don't have a coherent argument.

In case you forgot, you are the one with the burden of proof to say something coherent and relevant which might actually challenge the commonly accepted facts and interpretations of the Holocaust and WWII.

You evidently want to discuss WWII vis-a-vis the holocaust. OK. Let's do that.

No, you were the one who raised WWII vis-a-vis the Holocaust. Which led you to start uttering such profundities as 'there was a war going on', a statement which simply wipes out the possibility that some of what was going on was considered to be war crimes, never mind how those crimes would be perceived, understood and remembered 70 years later by non-Jews as well as Jews.

Between five and six million European Jews were murdered as part of Nazi Germany's state sponsored program of genocide which we call the holocaust. How many non-holocaust related Jewish casualties were there during World War II? How many Jews were executed for crimes other than just being Jewish? How many Jews were simply innocent civilians caught in the crossfire? How many Jews went missing but were not confirmed dead? How many Jews died because they were old?

Nice try at shifting the burden of proof but it's your job to take into consideration the known facts and state your case.

Past posts of yours indicate you believe that Jews died from collateral damage and other causes which you think can be reduced to 'there was a war going on' and thus handwaved away. The burden of proof is very much on you to outline evidence proving this, rather than expecting everyone else to do your work for you.

It's also up to you to be pretty clear where you are talking about. The Holocaust affected three main groupings of areas, the USSR/Baltic states, Poland and the rest of Europe. Things were different in each of these area-groupings.

For the rest of Europe in particular, your concerns about collateral damage and other causes are basically irrelevant, since Holocaust losses are essentially calculated from documented deportations versus number of returning survivors. Jews who died of old age in France or Germany or Austria are not counted, any more than Jews born in hiding are not counted. The act of deportation was a deliberate one aimed at Jews because they were Jews. A pensioner who died after being deported was just as deliberately killed as if they had been executed in a reprisal. In both cases, one can make the specious argument that they would have died within a year or so anyway, but this would also apply for all other historical death tolls and is thus hardly unique to the Holocaust.

Your other conjecture, that Jews might be executed for 'legitimate' reasons, ignores the universal assessment of Nazi justice as excessively biased, with minor crimes being spun into acts worthy of the death sentence. Non-Jews and Jews suffered from this mania for the guillotine and firing-squad in very large numbers; Jews were given shorter shrift because they were Jews. There was a racial bias to Nazi practices which extended to their judicial system, the euthanasia program and to their extrajudicial system of terror, i.e. the camps.

Austria gives a good example. There were 46,791 victims of deportations, i.e. Austrian Jews who died after being deported because they were Jews. The total number of Jewish victims of Nazi crimes is 48,767 (taken from Jonny Moser, 'Oesterreich', p.73, in the Benz collection Dimension des Voelkermords. I am discounting Austrian Jews who were deported from other countries to avoid double-counts.).

The difference is 1,976, i.e 96% of the headline figure died because of being deported as Jews.

Of the 1,976 Jewish victims of Nazi crimes who did not die after deportation because they were Jews, 1,578 died after being sent to 'ordinary' KZs, 9 were executed, 18 were murdered, 8 died in prisons on Austrian territory, and 363 were subjected to euthanasia.

Adding the KZ deaths to the deportation deaths, which is perfectly valid since the majority of KZ deaths occurred when the Jews were sent to KZs because they were Jews, then we reach 99.1% of the death toll. The difference is basically explained by the 363 euthanasia victims, who were selected on a more cursory basis because they were Jews, and died as victims of a crime carried out in the name of Nazi racial ideology as a whole. The murders were also acts of racial persecution, occurring mainly during Kristallnacht which was an antisemitic pogrom and thus because they were Jews. The executions were carried out by a biased judicial system that was manifestly prejudiced against Jews as a result of Nazi diktat, frequently converting prison sentences to death sentences because the convicts were Jews.

Moser highlights on p.70 the fact that in 1945, the Jewish council in Vienna, a rump body which existed to oversee the exempted Jews in mixed marriages that we discussed before, was hit by an air raid, killing 19 Jews. But he doesn't then include them in the figure of 48,767.


Now, by all means repeat this exercise for every country in Europe, stating precisely who died how at what time and show us that Jews really were being killed in large numbers in a race-blind fashion. Don't forget also to compare with the numbers of non-Jewish victims of executions and deportations.

A good starting point can be found here which incidentally answers many of your questions.
 
Dogzilla stated that the Nazis may have had a legitmate reason to execute the jews?

what on earth is he yabbering on about.....

So with this twisted logic it is legitmate to round up civillians and execute them???

Thats jsut perverse and insane
 
Dogzilla stated that the Nazis may have had a legitmate reason to execute the jews?

what on earth is he yabbering on about.....

So with this twisted logic it is legitmate to round up civillians and execute them???

Thats jsut perverse and insane

Tha's why Distomo and Komeno have been mentioned...
 
I see CM amd Dogzie still throwing out pointless ntohings as a distraction attempt and coming up with seer fantasies as evidence.

And again proving nothingthat they know how to use a search engine..

CM and DOgzie have you ever been to Deautschland?

I have several times and I am planning to live there, and the Germans yes the Geramns have addressed the holocaust and their forebears role in it over and over, they acknowledge what their ancestors did and have said sorry, they have had the guts to do that, have you the guts to admit your prattle here is vacuous insulting nonesense.

Insulting to the victims
Insulting to the nation that has the spine and backbone to admit what happened and make amends.

I can't believe I had to have it pointed out to me that beating up some random idiot when drunk is a lot different from throwing oneself heedlessly into the teeth of armed oppressors with the full weight of a country behind them. I think all the other Wrong got in the way.

Clay seems to think his claims about the emotional state of the Jews if the official story is true are some sort of gotcha, yet he avoids more definite questions such as comparing the Holocaust to other similar genocides where the results he claims don't happen. Heck, even his definition of "the Jews" apparently doesn't include the Jewish POWs, which were apparently perfectly safe and wouldn't be fired up by the same animalistic fervor that would ignite other Jewish people.

The funny thing is that he thinks that the Jews turning into savage, suicidal animals under oppression is thinking better of them than the official story.

All Jews, then Jews in Camps, then Jews in camps except for Jewish POWs, now he's back to all Jews again. Amazing.
 
I've read the last couple pages and didn't see this asked, so here are 3 questions for the Holocaust Deniers:

What do you think about those who were punished after the Nuremberg trials?
If this stuff isn't true, why did these men go along with the trial and confess to the charges?*

How many Jews do you think were actually killed (since you seem more like the types to say the official numbers were inflated)?

*Note: I'm not saying this is proof that the Holocaust happened, I just want your opinions on the matter.
 
I've read the last couple pages and didn't see this asked, so here are 3 questions for the Holocaust Deniers:

What do you think about those who were punished after the Nuremberg trials?
If this stuff isn't true, why did these men go along with the trial and confess to the charges?*

How many Jews do you think were actually killed (since you seem more like the types to say the official numbers were inflated)?

*Note: I'm not saying this is proof that the Holocaust happened, I just want your opinions on the matter.
Hi, is it really you? Welcome to the thread. I've read every comment so far. There are a few other questions that are still awaiting an answer. Are yours more urgent? Will you be staying long?

What do you think of those punished after the Nuremberg Trials?
Since this stuff is true and confessions are indeed proof that the Holocaust happened, perhaps you'd like to cite some examples. To let people know which confessions you were thinking about specifically when you wrote that...

How many Jews do you think were killed?
 
I haven't personally been injured. To experience the punishing wrath administered to holocaust skeptics by drunk Jewish Canadians I would need to move to Canada, become a Canadian citizen and then go into a Jewish bar and start trash talking the holocaust. I'd rather stay here in the United States. tear Jewish babies in half and then be forgiven.

Your jackboots are showing.
 
If you see a young child in the path of an oncoming car do you still see the car?

If you see a young child in the path of an oncoming car are you thinking of the car?

Why do you fantasize about running over Jewish babies with a car?
 
Projection is an ugly thing, Dogzilla, especially since you still don't have a coherent argument.

In case you forgot, you are the one with the burden of proof to say something coherent and relevant which might actually challenge the commonly accepted facts and interpretations of the Holocaust and WWII.



No, you were the one who raised WWII vis-a-vis the Holocaust. Which led you to start uttering such profundities as 'there was a war going on', a statement which simply wipes out the possibility that some of what was going on was considered to be war crimes, never mind how those crimes would be perceived, understood and remembered 70 years later by non-Jews as well as Jews.



Nice try at shifting the burden of proof but it's your job to take into consideration the known facts and state your case.

Past posts of yours indicate you believe that Jews died from collateral damage and other causes which you think can be reduced to 'there was a war going on' and thus handwaved away. The burden of proof is very much on you to outline evidence proving this, rather than expecting everyone else to do your work for you.

It's also up to you to be pretty clear where you are talking about. The Holocaust affected three main groupings of areas, the USSR/Baltic states, Poland and the rest of Europe. Things were different in each of these area-groupings.

For the rest of Europe in particular, your concerns about collateral damage and other causes are basically irrelevant, since Holocaust losses are essentially calculated from documented deportations versus number of returning survivors. Jews who died of old age in France or Germany or Austria are not counted, any more than Jews born in hiding are not counted. The act of deportation was a deliberate one aimed at Jews because they were Jews. A pensioner who died after being deported was just as deliberately killed as if they had been executed in a reprisal. In both cases, one can make the specious argument that they would have died within a year or so anyway, but this would also apply for all other historical death tolls and is thus hardly unique to the Holocaust.

Your other conjecture, that Jews might be executed for 'legitimate' reasons, ignores the universal assessment of Nazi justice as excessively biased, with minor crimes being spun into acts worthy of the death sentence. Non-Jews and Jews suffered from this mania for the guillotine and firing-squad in very large numbers; Jews were given shorter shrift because they were Jews. There was a racial bias to Nazi practices which extended to their judicial system, the euthanasia program and to their extrajudicial system of terror, i.e. the camps.

Austria gives a good example. There were 46,791 victims of deportations, i.e. Austrian Jews who died after being deported because they were Jews. The total number of Jewish victims of Nazi crimes is 48,767 (taken from Jonny Moser, 'Oesterreich', p.73, in the Benz collection Dimension des Voelkermords. I am discounting Austrian Jews who were deported from other countries to avoid double-counts.).

The difference is 1,976, i.e 96% of the headline figure died because of being deported as Jews.

Of the 1,976 Jewish victims of Nazi crimes who did not die after deportation because they were Jews, 1,578 died after being sent to 'ordinary' KZs, 9 were executed, 18 were murdered, 8 died in prisons on Austrian territory, and 363 were subjected to euthanasia.

Adding the KZ deaths to the deportation deaths, which is perfectly valid since the majority of KZ deaths occurred when the Jews were sent to KZs because they were Jews, then we reach 99.1% of the death toll. The difference is basically explained by the 363 euthanasia victims, who were selected on a more cursory basis because they were Jews, and died as victims of a crime carried out in the name of Nazi racial ideology as a whole. The murders were also acts of racial persecution, occurring mainly during Kristallnacht which was an antisemitic pogrom and thus because they were Jews. The executions were carried out by a biased judicial system that was manifestly prejudiced against Jews as a result of Nazi diktat, frequently converting prison sentences to death sentences because the convicts were Jews.

Moser highlights on p.70 the fact that in 1945, the Jewish council in Vienna, a rump body which existed to oversee the exempted Jews in mixed marriages that we discussed before, was hit by an air raid, killing 19 Jews. But he doesn't then include them in the figure of 48,767.


Now, by all means repeat this exercise for every country in Europe, stating precisely who died how at what time and show us that Jews really were being killed in large numbers in a race-blind fashion. Don't forget also to compare with the numbers of non-Jewish victims of executions and deportations.

A good starting point can be found here which incidentally answers many of your questions.

Between five and six million European Jews were murdered as part of Nazi Germany's state sponsored program of genocide which we call the holocaust. How many non-holocaust related Jewish casualties were there during World War II? How many Jews were executed for crimes other than just being Jewish? How many Jews were simply innocent civilians caught in the crossfire? How many Jews went missing but were not confirmed dead? How many Jews died because they were old?

So your answer is: none. None Jews died outside of the holocaust. Does everyone agree?
 
I see more diversion from Dogzilla, non jews were killed and maassacred by the Nazis too .

It was all part of the piece we call the holocaust or at least those of us that know anything about history that is unlike Dogzilla
 
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Between five and six million European Jews were murdered as part of Nazi Germany's state sponsored program of genocide which we call the holocaust. How many non-holocaust related Jewish casualties were there during World War II? How many Jews were executed for crimes other than just being Jewish? How many Jews were simply innocent civilians caught in the crossfire? How many Jews went missing but were not confirmed dead? How many Jews died because they were old?

So your answer is: none. None Jews died outside of the holocaust. Does everyone agree?

No my answer went as follows:

In case you forgot, you are the one with the burden of proof to say something coherent and relevant which might actually challenge the commonly accepted facts and interpretations of the Holocaust and WWII.

....

Nice try at shifting the burden of proof but it's your job to take into consideration the known facts and state your case.

Past posts of yours indicate you believe that Jews died from collateral damage and other causes which you think can be reduced to 'there was a war going on' and thus handwaved away. The burden of proof is very much on you to outline evidence proving this, rather than expecting everyone else to do your work for you.

It's also up to you to be pretty clear where you are talking about. The Holocaust affected three main groupings of areas, the USSR/Baltic states, Poland and the rest of Europe. Things were different in each of these area-groupings.

The figures used by myself, LemmyCaution and others with knowledge of the actual history, i.e. 5.1 to 5.3 million, don't include Jewish war dead, losses from collateral damage (eg in the 1939 Polish campaign), deaths at the hands of other countries (eg Hungarian Labour Service men dying in Soviet captivity), or deaths from natural causes outside of confinement. They are composed exclusively of Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis and their fascist allies in state crimes and war crimes.

I gave an example of how this breaks down, for Austria, but you have apparently handwaved that away.

That was presumably because you didn't like the answer, which highlighted all of 9 judicial executions of Jews in Austria during the Third Reich, versus 48,767 Holocaust victims.

Maybe you can show us that those 9 Austrian Jews were executed for murder or another genuine capital offence that would have warranted the death penalty in the typical western state of the 1930s and 1940s, but given the Nazi track record with biased justice towards Jews the odds aren't great.
 
Moving on, Gerhard Hirschfeld's chapter on the Netherlands in Dimension des Voelkermords cites no examples of Jews in the Netherlands dying in any other situation than after they had been deported. Other studies have noted some suicides before deportation (which would thus have been caused by deportation).

This is an interesting one since if there were some Jews among the 2,332 Dutch soldiers killed in the 1940 campaign or the 2,000 civilians killed as collateral damage, then they weren't alive to be counted in the 1941 census. The worst affected city, Rotterdam, saw 1,000 dead but was not inhabited by many Jews, who mostly lived in Amsterdam, which fell without serious fighting.

By the time the war returned to the Netherlands seriously in 1944, the Jews of the Netherlands had been deported.

So this is another example where 'collateral damage' isn't going to fly.
 
Moving on, Gerhard Hirschfeld's chapter on the Netherlands in Dimension des Voelkermords cites no examples of Jews in the Netherlands dying in any other situation than after they had been deported. Other studies have noted some suicides before deportation (which would thus have been caused by deportation).

This is an interesting one since if there were some Jews among the 2,332 Dutch soldiers killed in the 1940 campaign or the 2,000 civilians killed as collateral damage, then they weren't alive to be counted in the 1941 census. The worst affected city, Rotterdam, saw 1,000 dead but was not inhabited by many Jews, who mostly lived in Amsterdam, which fell without serious fighting.

By the time the war returned to the Netherlands seriously in 1944, the Jews of the Netherlands had been deported.

So this is another example where 'collateral damage' isn't going to fly.

Keep reading your fairy tales. The Holocaust is little more than a money grab and a license to steal and cause wars with impunity.
 
Keep reading your fairy tales. The Holocaust is little more than a money grab and a license to steal and cause wars with impunity.

NO CM this is the awful reality........

You are the denizen of a dream world fed by your ignorance
 
Indeed, yes, the Holocaust was very much a money grab. By the Nazis.



For the Nazis between 1938-1945, yes. For anyone else after 1945, no.

Is that a translation of "Hitlers Volksstaat"? That book is pretty interesting. And so was the reaction by some of Aly's critics. The notion that social politics in Germany has been some kind of appeasement deal towards the own population since Bismarck apparently does not sit well with some.
(I'm rather irked that it always happened because someone thought their rule was in danger and not out of humanitarian concerns. Must be my quasi SPD upbringing.)
 
Is that a translation of "Hitlers Volksstaat"? That book is pretty interesting. And so was the reaction by some of Aly's critics. The notion that social politics in Germany has been some kind of appeasement deal towards the own population since Bismarck apparently does not sit well with some.
(I'm rather irked that it always happened because someone thought their rule was in danger and not out of humanitarian concerns. Must be my quasi SPD upbringing.)

Indeed, yes, the translation of Hitlers Volksstaat. I don't agree with everything in Aly's book, but the basic point, that Nazi Germany robbed Europe blind, and also robbed European Jews blind, stands regardless.
 
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