General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

... you know absolutely nothing of the history you profess to be the owner of the truth on.

Let's see: "no matter the odds"? Yep. that's what you *just* restated.

"Would not cooperate"? Yep -- because they would not be "putting everyone in jeopardy" more than they already were otherwise.

"Whenever"? Yep -- The Jews were threatened and treated harshly outside the camps. Sometime to the point of the kind of resistance you claim the lack of supports your hate-spawned fantasy that the camps were some sort of resort location.



Go ahead: tell these point are wrong: admit that the odds mattered, that things like the Warsaw ghetto uprising didn't happen, and that you can document anyone other than another denier as stating that everycamp was 24/7 atrocity. Show us once again how ignorant you are of the history you pretend to "revise"


Isn't time for another rant about Elie and Steve?

Lurkers read this attempt at obfuscation carefully.

 

[TSR]

Lurkers read this attempt at obfuscation carefully.

Your attempt is only 7 words, it doesn't take that long.

And is that the vast vast majority of lurkers YOUR OWN POLL shows disagree with your crap? What was that again: 3% or so agreeing with denial -- except ~ 2/3 of those stated they voted incorrectly?

So roughly 1% agree. Your Nazi heros managed to do better than that in your "victor's justice" "show trials".

Go watch some more Oprah: even *she* knows more of the history than your post demonstrates.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Your attempt is only 7 words, it doesn't take that long.

And is that the vast vast majority of lurkers YOUR OWN POLL shows disagree with your crap? What was that again: 3% or so agreeing with denial -- except ~ 2/3 of those stated they voted incorrectly?

So roughly 1% agree. Your Nazi heros managed to do better than that in your "victor's justice" "show trials".

Go watch some more Oprah: even *she* knows more of the history than your post demonstrates.

Google "Irene Zisblatt oprah"

The first thing listed is

Spielberg's Hoax Holohoax


Do you know why?

It's because Oprah never apologized for or retracted, as far as I know, the lies told by Zisblatt when she appeared on her show. That's how the Holocaust lie is perpetuated.
Lies are told and their hate is imprinted. When the lies are exposed there is no attempt to undo the imprinting. No apology. No nothing.

 

[Nick Terry]

We all know that somewhere between five and six million Jews were murdered during the Nazi holocaust. None of those Jews were killed because they were involved in black market or resistance activity. None of them were killed because they were associated with the communists or "Bolshevism" in any way. Even though millions of Jews lived in the old Pale of Settlement and the front lines between the German and Russian armies moved through that territory twice during the war, none of the Jews living there were among the innocent civilians who got caught in the crossfire. Jews weren't rounded up and sent concentration camps because they were considered enemies of the state. They were rounded up and murdered because they were Jews. Jewish soldiers serving in the military who were killed in action are usually considered military casualties--not holocaust victims. But all other Jewish deaths are holocaust deaths. The war had nothing to do with those deaths. It sounds stupid but that's the holocaust for ya.

I'll start my reply by telling a joke relayed from a Greek friend of a colleague.

Angela Merkel visits Greece and arrives at the airport. She goes up to passport control and is asked some questions.

Name? 'Angela Merkel'
Nationality? 'German'
Occupation? 'Oh, I'm only here on holiday for two days'

And lo and behold, the Wiki entry for WWII casualties cites the following on Greece:

The Greek National Council for Reparations from Germany reports the following casualties during the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II. Military dead: 35,077 including, 13,327 killed in the Greco-Italian War of 1940–41; 1,100 with the Greek Forces in the Mid East and 20,650 partisan deaths. Civilian Deaths: 771,845 including: 56,225 executed by Axis forces; 105,000 dead in German concentration camps (including Jews); 7,120 deaths due to bombing, 3,500 merchant marine dead, and 600,000 war related famine deaths[229] Jewish Holocaust victims totaled 69,500.[142]

Please, do go to Corfu or Cephalonia or Klissura or Distomo, and tell the Greeks that it was just a war.

 

[Dcdrac]

Google "Irene Zisblatt oprah"

The first thing listed is

Spielberg's Hoax Holohoax


Do you know why?

It's because Oprah never apologized for or retracted, as far as I know, the lies told by Zisblatt when she appeared on her show. That's how the Holocaust lie is perpetuated.
Lies are told and their hate is imprinted. When the lies are exposed there is no attempt to undo the imprinting. No apology. No nothing.

CM htere is nothing to apolgize for the hOlocaust happened, you on the other hand have provided no evidence whatsoever to back your fantasy

 

[LemmyCaution]

Whenever? Way to obliterate my view.

People sometimes snap violently when they are in a bad relationship, when they lose their job, when they argue with their neighbor over a period of time.

I clearly stated that exposing large numbers of Jewish people to alleged hellish brutality and atrocities against Jewish children, women and men
24/7 would bring about an instability in a camp that would put everyone in the camp in jeopardy. Especially toward camp staff and the guards.

It's typical of team Holocaust to misrepresent the truth then proceed to fabricate from that misrepresentation.

You clearly stated nothing. I did not misstate what you've written - what does sudden snapping have to do, for example, with the labor movement, which you cited? And, in fact, you are wrong again: the Poles didn't suddenly snap facing genocide. There is no contradiction, contrary to your numerous claims, between how Jews acted and how your typical people would and did act under the kinds of threats that Europe's Jews faced during the Holocaust. You are all over the map, back-pedaling, weaseling, dodging, and obfuscating - and the only thing clear about your "arguments" is that they add up to gibberish.

 

[LemmyCaution]

We all know that somewhere between five and six million Jews were murdered during the Nazi holocaust. None of those Jews were killed because they were involved in black market or resistance activity. None of them were killed because they were associated with the communists or "Bolshevism" in any way. Even though millions of Jews lived in the old Pale of Settlement and the front lines between the German and Russian armies moved through that territory twice during the war, none of the Jews living there were among the innocent civilians who got caught in the crossfire. Jews weren't rounded up and sent concentration camps because they were considered enemies of the state. They were rounded up and murdered because they were Jews. Jewish soldiers serving in the military who were killed in action are usually considered military casualties--not holocaust victims. But all other Jewish deaths are holocaust deaths. The war had nothing to do with those deaths. It sounds stupid but that's the holocaust for ya.

We have seen many weird arguments and posts in the Holocaust threads. But this one takes the cake. In it, Dogzilla offers up a novel defense of the Nazis against the charge of genocide: that is, genocide, albeit offered up sarcastically.

In the UN's 1948 Genocide Convention, genocide is defined as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

So, indeed, the Third Reich attempted to destroy Europe's Jewish population - by means of killing, causing bodily and mental harm, creating conditions calculated to bring about its physical destruction, imposing measures to prevent Jewish births - because the National Socialists were under the delusion that Jews as a group were associated with communists or "Bolshevism" and because the National Socialists irrationally considered Jews to be enemies of the Volk and Reich. And, of course, the intent to destroy a group of people because of their imagined threat to a nation or group is precisely genocidal. There is no defense against genocide that says the crime is excused because of delusional beliefs. In fact, from my reading, one of the necessary features of a genocidal movement is that the movement fear as an existential threat the group targeted for genocide. By repeating the National Socialist "rationale" for genocide, Dogzilla is not explaining a thing - only echoing a hollow, criminal ideology.

It is almost certain, of course, that European Jews were also killed for black market activity (in some cases, as is well known, the situation forced upon them by pauperization, ghettoization, etc.) and caught in the crossfire and done away with for many other causes. One reason Dogzilla will not engage in a serious discussion of specific examples of the murder of Jews is that such cases (Vilna, Warsaw, Riga, Kiev, and Lodz, for example) show, just as did our look into the Jaeger Report, the proportion of victims falling into various categories - and just how great was the preponderance of murders of Jews as imagined enemies of Germany, that is, as Jews.

 

[Nick Terry]

I clearly stated that exposing large numbers of Jewish people to alleged hellish brutality and atrocities against Jewish children, women and men
24/7 would bring about an instability in a camp that would put everyone in the camp in jeopardy. Especially toward camp staff and the guards.

Clayton, what is the longest time you have gone without proper food?
Clayton, what is the longest nonstop journey you have been on?
Clayton, have you ever been arrested and booked?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I clearly stated that exposing large numbers of Jewish people to alleged hellish brutality and atrocities against Jewish children, women and men
24/7 would bring about an instability in a camp that would put everyone in the camp in jeopardy. Especially toward camp staff and the guards.

Clayton, what is the longest time you have gone without proper food?
Clayton, what is the longest nonstop journey you have been on?
Clayton, have you ever been arrested and booked?

More nonsense? More disinformation?

Would you ask the same questions of an employee who violently snaps?

 

[Clayton Moore]

You clearly stated nothing. I did not misstate what you've written - what does sudden snapping have to do, for example, with the labor movement, which you cited? And, in fact, you are wrong again: the Poles didn't suddenly snap facing genocide. There is no contradiction, contrary to your numerous claims, between how Jews acted and how your typical people would and did act under the kinds of threats that Europe's Jews faced during the Holocaust. You are all over the map, back-pedaling, weaseling, dodging, and obfuscating - and the only thing clear about your "arguments" is that they add up to gibberish.

The Holocaust is a Jewish embellishment of what happened. The Jewish people have received billions of reparations and profits from the Holocaust. My Uncle Rob got a wheel chair.

My point is, again, that if there had been the brutality and atrocities, victims and potential victims, Jewish or otherwise, would have had in their midst TIMEFREAKINBOMBS.

The rest of the Holocaust hooey is just that when I read of Jewish people surviving 5 and more alleged death camps.

 

[thedopefishlives]

The Holocaust is a Jewish embellishment of what happened. The Jewish people have received billions of reparations and profits from the Holocaust. My Uncle Rob got a wheel chair.

My point is, again, that if there had been the brutality and atrocities, victims and potential victims, Jewish or otherwise, would have had in their midst TIMEFREAKINBOMBS.

The rest of the Holocaust hooey is just that when I read of Jewish people surviving 5 and more alleged death camps.

So in other words, it's your personal incredulity and that's all you've got. Noted.

 

[TSR]

Google "Irene Zisblatt oprah"

The first thing listed is

Spielberg's Hoax Holohoax


Do you know why?

It's because Oprah never apologized for or retracted, as far as I know, the lies told by Zisblatt when she appeared on her show. That's how the Holocaust lie is perpetuated.
Lies are told and their hate is imprinted. When the lies are exposed there is no attempt to undo the imprinting. No apology. No nothing.

And yet, you have only just now mentioned that Oprah should. Have you contacted her to ask that she do so?

And you also haven't complained about Oprah hosting an "Ask Jenny (Mccarty) page on her website -- is that because Jenny's crap about autism suits your agenda?

Let me ask you: what are Oprah's qualifications as an historian? What are Spielberg's?

Why do you keep insisting that pop culture defines history?

Jerry Springer, in his day, was every bit as popular as Oprah. Guess what? A significant number of his guests (and certainly most that made it onto his DVDs) were actors, hired to act like white trash. He's never apologized for that, but since he's not Jewish it's okay.

Here's an interesting Google search for *you*: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sa=X&....,cf.osb&fp=cc58da16baf8435c&biw=1225&bih=581 which you claimed did not lead you to the THHP site, whose contents are "nothing but lies" even though you have yet to cite a single such?

Here's another one: https://www.google.com/search?sugex....,cf.osb&fp=cf5be2366c27ee22&biw=1920&bih=995 : first hit, an actual historian deconstructing Zisblatt's story

As I have said: no one who cares about history depends on Oprah to learn about it.

It's very telling that *you* do.

 

[TSR]

My point is, again, that if there had been the brutality and atrocities, victims and potential victims, Jewish or otherwise, would have had in their midst TIMEFREAKINBOMBS.

And that point has been discussed, and documented as HAVING NO BASIS IN ANYTHING BUT YOUR IRRATIONAL NEED THAT IT BE SO since other groups have reacted in the same ways as the Jews did (sometimes in the same camps).

But, being a denier requires you to ignore any evidence that cannot be twisted to seem to justify your irrational hate, so you have never even *tried* to address the counterexamples you were given -- nor have you been able to find some one to spoon feed you examples of your own to support your crap.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My point is, again, that if there had been the brutality and atrocities, victims and potential victims, Jewish or otherwise, would have had in their midst TIMEFREAKINBOMBS.

I don't know what this sentence means. You seem to be a bit irritated and thus capitalize what you feel to be important. On the other hand, a) you fail to explain precisely what would have been in the midst of the victims, in other words, what a TIMEFREAKINBOMB is, what it would do, and how to recognize it, b) you don't explain why the reactions of the TIMEFREAKINBOMBS in the death camps would be different from the cases of the Poles, where passivity was noted and POWs, who mostly succumbed to the brutality and general terms of imprisonment, and c) you offer absolutely no evidence for the opinion you hold, whatever it is, our knowing only that for some reason you object.

 

[TSR]

Would you ask the same questions of an employee who violently snaps?

No, but then, we're not impotently trying to claim an equivalency between an employee who snaps and your fantasy of every member of an oppressed people being TIMEFREAKINGBOMBS, man woman and child.

We recognize the reality that these would be completely different situations even if your fantasy weren't a function of your mindless hate.

Which it is.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Google "Irene Zisblatt oprah"

The 10 greatest historians of the Third Reich and Holocaust:

1. Raul Hilberg
2. Peter Longerich
3. Isaiah Trunk
4. Christopher Browning
5. Dieter Pohl
6. Gotz Aly
7. Oprah Winfrey
8. Adam Tooze
9. Christian Gerlach
10. Jeffrey Herf

 

[tsig]

The Holocaust is a Jewish embellishment of what happened. The Jewish people have received billions of reparations and profits from the Holocaust. My Uncle Rob got a wheel chair. My point is, again, that if there had been the brutality and atrocities, victims and potential victims, Jewish or otherwise, would have had in their midst TIMEFREAKINBOMBS.

The rest of the Holocaust hooey is just that when I read of Jewish people surviving 5 and more alleged death camps.

Some got billions and all your uncle got was a lousy wheel chair? No wonder you're bitter.

 

[TSR]

The 10 greatest historians of the Third Reich and Holocaust:

1. Raul Hilberg
2. Peter Longerich
3. Isaiah Trunk
4. Christopher Browning
5. Dieter Pohl
6. Gotz Aly
7. Oprah Winfrey
8. Adam Tooze
9. Christian Gerlach
10. Jeffrey Herf

And I would give long odds that if CM were forced to be honest, zie has heard of (but not read the works of) only two, maybe three of them.

However of this list of deniers, zie is familiar with all, and perhaps has actually read an article written by:

1. David Irving
2. Ernst Gauss
3. Richard Krege
4. Michael Gärtner
5. Angela Schneider
6. Arthur Butz
7. Manfred Gerner
8. Mark Weber
9. Werner Kretschmer
10. Germar Rudolf


< ssssshhhh all of us who get the joke -- I'm feeding some rope here >

What say you, CM -- who of both lists' works have you read for comprehension?

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

The Holocaust is a Jewish embellishment of what happened. The Jewish people have received billions of reparations and profits from the Holocaust. My Uncle Rob got a wheel chair.

My point is, again, that if there had been the brutality and atrocities, victims and potential victims, Jewish or otherwise, would have had in their midst TIMEFREAKINBOMBS.

The rest of the Holocaust hooey is just that when I read of Jewish people surviving 5 and more alleged death camps.

I read some alerts that there are plans for a new big screen movie about Sobibor.Written by Paul Andrew Williams.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cannes-paul-andrew-williams-sobibor-327264
Says it will be based on a true story.

Edit to add: Would you go see this with me, to discuss historical accuracy afterwards? Or will you and your friends perhaps be too disappointed that it probably won't be about http://www.gedenkstaette-vaihingen.de/3019-Geschichte-des-Lagers.html
Can you tell them it is Schelvis, with a c, thanks.

 

[Dcdrac]

This was fascinating

Nazi legacy: The troubled descendants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18120890