General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[000063]

Oh no! Posting books that support his argument? Surely he must know that you'll never read a whole book? I mean, it's way too much to expect from you....

Even when the books are online. I fondly remember that time he tried to sneer at books because he guessed they weren't easily accessible and several were on Google Books.

 

[Dcdrac]

Just been watching a programme about another hero oppose of the Nazis Hans Litten

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deschart/hans.html

"Thoughts are Free"

This was a poem recited by Hans Litten in a concentration camp on Hitler’s birthday shortly before he was murdered by the SS.

Thoughts are free, who can guess them?

They flee by like nocturnal shadows.
No man can know them, no hunter can shoot them
with powder and lead: Thoughts are free!

I think what I want, and what delights me,
still always reticent, and as it is suitable.
My wish and desire, no one can deny me
and so it will always be: Thoughts are free!

And if I am thrown into the darkest dungeon,
all this would be futile work,
because my thoughts tear all gates
and walls apart: Thoughts are free!

So I will renounce my sorrows forever,
and never again will torture myself with whimsies.
In one’s heart, one can always laugh and joke
and think at the same time: Thoughts are free!

I love wine, and my girl even more,
Only her I like best of all.
I’m not alone with my glass of wine,
my girl is with me: Thoughts are free!

 

[Multivac]

And it's not even true. No one with any sense hates the Germans for the Nazis. People hate the Nazis and those sympathetic with them for what they did.

Exactly. I have never equated Nazis and Germans, except in the sense that most nazis were German. The Nazis were scum sucking sociopaths, but that doesn't stop me from having German friends and holidaying in German cities such as Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne.

 

[Multivac]

Disrespectful because I am mocking a holocaust "survivor"

^^This^^

 

[Multivac]

World War II? What does that have to do with the holocaust?

Is this a serios question, or some kind of weird joke?

 

[Dcdrac]

Is this a serios question, or some kind of weird joke?

it is either a serious question or an indication of serious ignorance...…


and I love Berlin and would live there if I could leave my current job in London and walk into one there

 

[Multivac]

I'm really rather unclear as to why you find the account incredible, given everything else Nazi doctors at Auschwitz are known to have done. Schumann's main emphasis was on using x-rays to sterilise his test subjects. Dr Carl Clauberg conducted sterilisation experiments where uteruses were burned out with acid. The chief doctor at Auschwitz, Eduard Wirths, photographed women's cervices and then amputated them so he could collaborate with the inventor of colposcopy. Wirths' brother Helmut showed up at the camp and took part in all the 'fun' they were having too. For more on a lot of this, see Robert Jay Lifton's book Nazi Doctors which is online in full.

Thanks for the link. Don't have time to read it at the moment, but will do in a few days.

 

[Multivac]

You do understand that there is an agenda being fulfilled by propagating the Holocaust nonsense?

Yes. It's called the truth.

 

[tsig]

It's amazing that people are still debating the Holohoax. Anyone with half a brain moved on from this used car sales pitch years ago.

You do well with your limitation.

 

[nomuse]

it is either a serious question or an indication of serious ignorance...…


and I love Berlin and would live there if I could leave my current job in London and walk into one there

Berlin is awesome. Every time I get an email from Native Instruments reminding me there are still job openings at their Berlin site I wish I was actually a computer programmer.

 

[Dcdrac]

I am going to brush up my german and start applying again I really like Germany and the Germans

 

[Multivac]

Of course not. But it is only your obtuse and arrogant posture that prevents you from using this forum to learn. People often learn from others who are not in a position of authority to teach them, by the way, often much more from colleagues and peers, writers and commentators than from those in formal positions of authority.

Exactly. I have learnt much in this thread, the Apollo hoax thread and other discussions on JREF and elsewhere from posters who have been kind enough to share their knowledge and experience.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

The entire sickening story of the Jews who were specially selected, murdered, and rendered down into skeletons for display by the Institute of Anatomy in Strassburg is also detailed in Heather Pringle's book on the Ahnenerbe that has been mentioned in this thread before.

I ended up getting the Kindle-app edition (one of those without page numbers) because of your reminder.
Different in some details and focus I'd say Pringle's book complements Pressac's. Together, a good read and available at a very reasonable price too.

 

[Multivac]

I wander if he knows who Von Stauffenberg was........

Knowledge can be obtained in some very strange ways. I hadn't heard of Von Stauffenberg until I saw this episode of the BBC SCi-Fi comedy series Red Dwarf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeslides

It intrigued me enough to find out out more about Von Stauffenberg and his failed attempt to kill Hitler.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

... You don't appear very keen on exploring Alvarez now that a dedicated thread has been created for such matters - Wahrheitseeker's post, citing Kalkulierte Morde, the latest addition there ...

That thread did not reach the second page yet... Hilarious.

Looking at what has been added after Wahrheitseeker's post up to this point, I agree that the gas van thread has been a hilarious display of the ineptitude of Holocaust denial. In that regard it is no different than this multi-part thread with thousands of posts.
Why do you think magz is already trying to change the subject? You don't think magz is really proposing a comparative analysis, do you? Soap and lampshades. Soap and lampshades soap and lampshades soap and lampshades. How many times could that be rewritten to extend any thread meaningfully?

 

[Liam]

Looking at what has been added after Wahrheitseeker's post up to this point, I agree that the gas van thread has been a hilarious display of the ineptitude of Holocaust denial. In that regard it is no different than this multi-part thread with thousands of posts.
Why do you think magz is already trying to change the subject? You don't think magz is really proposing a comparative analysis, do you? Soap and lampshades. Soap and lampshades soap and lampshades soap and lampshades. How many times could that be rewritten to extend any thread meaningfully?

Yes..I was going to respond to Clayton Moore's reply to me but it would involve using some evidence from the Nuremberg trial and I think we already know what his response to that would be -> Katyn Katyn Katyn

 

[LemmyCaution]

So I read something interesting early this morning - and, no, it was not an exchange in this or the gas vans thread. It was in one of these things http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Despa...7183/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1337722962&sr=8-3, things that can also be found in this form http://books.google.com/books?id=nd...d=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ostrovetska&f=false. Anyone - except apparently deniers - can read these things. They are most informative.

In this case, I was reading about what Harvest of Despair's author, Karel Berkhoff, calls a deliberate policy of a wing of the Ukrainian nationalists, the Banderites, to exterminate Poles and other "enemy" nationalities living in the region between the Bug River and the pre-1939 border. Berkhoff describes the extermination actions of the UPA and other Ukrainian groups as occurring on account of a leadership decision taken in early 1943 and implemented, according to a typical pattern, between March and July 1943. Berkhoff cites eyewitness victim testimony, memoirs, documents from German and Soviet observers, and Banderite sources. He discusses the background to the killings in nationalist ideology, a series of incidents and clashes involving Poles and Ukrainians, political struggle, brutalization ensuring from war and genocide, and the aims of the Ukrainian nationalists. Berkhoff says that at least 15,000 Poles were murdered and a number of Polish villages razed in the 1943 extermination campaign conducted by the Banderites.

Rather than summarize a somewhat complex and not-too-well-known extermination campaign, I want to share an aspect of these murders that is pertinent to some of the "discussion" in this thread. Berkhoff writes that "At first many Poles in Volhynia remained passive" (p 293). Why? In the beginning the peasants didn't believe they faced harm, despite warnings and rumors. Then, when the danger became clear, "many fell into a state of apathy. 'We wanted an easy death,' Leon Zur recalls. 'People said it would be easier to die from German hands, for those had something to shoot with, whereas a Ukrainian bandit cut off the head with an axe or stabbed with a pitchfork.'" In short, after years of war, occupation, and cross-fire (Soviets, Germans, Ukrainians), many peasants moved from disbelief to fatalism. According to Berkhoff, Soviet partisans were among those commenting on this passivity of the doomed Polish peasants. Eventually, however, help came from, on the one hand, Soviet partisan units and, on the other, Germans, who took threatened Poles into Schuma units in return for intelligence about the UPA. Poles began trying to escape, and some even joined partisan bands or police units to save themselves.

This sounds quite a lot like a condensed version of the experience of another group targeted for genocide, the Jews of eastern Europe.

Here is another version, then, of Clayton's mythical "peasant in the street" who, whenever threatened or treated unjustly or harshly, Clayton alleges, would not cooperate in any manner and would fight back at all costs. No matter the odds. Cue more nonsense from Clayton: labor unions and so on. Except, of course, we have three cases where Clayton is simply wrong and has nothing to say except to repeat his fallacy like a mantra: these three cases are the Jews, Soviet POWs, and now Polish peasants. Does Clayton want us to look around a bit and find some comparative material on the Roma?

Another point worth stating about Berkhoff's coverage of the murders of Poles by Ukrainian nationalists is this: According to Taras Bulba, the nationalist campaign was "to exterminate Ukraine's national minorities" with a focus on the Poles (p 286). Erich Koch, Reichskommissar for Ukraine, explained to Alfred Rosenberg that during the killing campaign the Ukrainian nationalists were taking advantage of "the opportunity to kill, often in a most brutal way, the Poles, Czechs, and ethnic Germans living in the countryside" (p 287). A German military intelligence report for July 1943 likewise stated that the Banderites were carrying out "the extermination of Polish settlers in Volhynia" (p 287). What German word do you think was in the German intelligence report, for "extermination"? That's right. For "extermination," the German report used the word Ausrottung. And why that word? Because it means extermination - and because that is what the report was trying to convey, the extermination of Poles by Ukrainians.

 

[Dogzilla]

Is this a serios question, or some kind of weird joke?

We all know that somewhere between five and six million Jews were murdered during the Nazi holocaust. None of those Jews were killed because they were involved in black market or resistance activity. None of them were killed because they were associated with the communists or "Bolshevism" in any way. Even though millions of Jews lived in the old Pale of Settlement and the front lines between the German and Russian armies moved through that territory twice during the war, none of the Jews living there were among the innocent civilians who got caught in the crossfire. Jews weren't rounded up and sent concentration camps because they were considered enemies of the state. They were rounded up and murdered because they were Jews. Jewish soldiers serving in the military who were killed in action are usually considered military casualties--not holocaust victims. But all other Jewish deaths are holocaust deaths. The war had nothing to do with those deaths. It sounds stupid but that's the holocaust for ya.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Here is another version, then, of Clayton's mythical "peasant in the street" who, whenever threatened or treated unjustly or harshly, Clayton alleges, would not cooperate in any manner and would fight back at all costs. No matter the odds. Cue more nonsense from Clayton: labor unions and so on. Except, of course, we have three cases where Clayton is simply wrong and has nothing to say except to repeat his fallacy like a mantra: these three cases are the Jews, Soviet POWs, and now Polish peasants. Does Clayton want us to look around a bit and find some comparative material on the Roma?

Whenever? Way to obliterate my view.

People sometimes snap violently when they are in a bad relationship, when they lose their job, when they argue with their neighbor over a period of time.

I clearly stated that exposing large numbers of Jewish people to alleged hellish brutality and atrocities against Jewish children, women and men
24/7 would bring about an instability in a camp that would put everyone in the camp in jeopardy. Especially toward camp staff and the guards.

It's typical of team Holocaust to misrepresent the truth then proceed to fabricate from that misrepresentation.

 

[TSR]

I clearly stated that ...
< snip >

... you know absolutely nothing of the history you profess to be the owner of the truth on.

Let's see: "no matter the odds"? Yep. that's what you *just* restated.

"Would not cooperate"? Yep -- because they would not be "putting everyone in jeopardy" more than they already were otherwise.

"Whenever"? Yep -- The Jews were threatened and treated harshly outside the camps. Sometime to the point of the kind of resistance you claim the lack of supports your hate-spawned fantasy that the camps were some sort of resort location.



Go ahead: tell these point are wrong: admit that the odds mattered, that things like the Warsaw ghetto uprising didn't happen, and that you can document anyone other than another denier as stating that everycamp was 24/7 atrocity. Show us once again how ignorant you are of the history you pretend to "revise"


Isn't time for another rant about Elie and Steve?