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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
Number of words: 8174 + How, indeed.


Sorry. The antisemetic whine is never ending. It gets old. The only contact a large majority of people have with Jewish people is the endless barrage of articles whining about alleged antisemitism. Propaganda to make any criticism of people who happen to be Jewish is a criticism of Jewish people because they are Jewish.

8174 words of propaganda crapola.
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Would that largely be because there aren't quite so many of them now, thanks to your nazi friends?
 
SnakeTongue said:
Did you read any book wrote by David Irving?



Did you read any book wrote by David Irving?
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Yes, The War Between the Generals. Mr Irving seemed more interested in muckraking and scandal mongeri g than looking at the effects of the personality clashes, which would be why I found it uninteresting.
 
SnakeTongue said:
Deportation is not to mass murdering.

deportation

noun
the action of deporting a foreigner from a country:
asylum seekers facing deportation
[as modifier]:
a deportation order
mass deportations took place over many months
​
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Nor did BSO say deportation means mass murder. Your citation of a dictionary definition in this case is beyond meaningless. What BSO wrote was that deportation of Jews from the Netherlands can be proven to have resulted in the murder of some of them. So you need to deal with that, not an irrelevancy like the definition of deportation.
 
SnakeTongue said:
Did you read any book wrote by David Irving?
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I read his Website regularly, but have not had the pleasure yet of reading one of his books. My intervention here was to help you with the meaning of what another member posted - which you struggled to understand - although I will say that, from what Irving posts on his Website, I drew much the same conclusion as that other member.
 
Nick Terry said:
Hoess gave a list of major actions from individual countries and estimates from individual countries eg:
Hungary 400,000
Poland 250,000

adding up to 1.13 million Jews deported to Auschwitz.

The enumeration is essentially the same in his March 1946 affidavit (NO-1210) as in a statement to GM Gilbert around the time of his IMT interrogations (May 1946 or so) which Gilbert discussed at the Eichmann trial, and in his November 1946 (sorry, typo) essay 'the Final Solution of the Jewish Question', and thus published in his memoir.

Pelt discusses Gilbert's testimony at the Eichmann trial, and also gives the breakdown included in his memoir. He does not, however, notice that NO-1210 contains the same enumeration for individual actions.

Your argument was originally that no Nazi testified under oath to the gassing of 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz. You may have half a banana because no Nazi could possibly testify to such a number, as a maximum of 1.1 million Jews were deported to Auschwitz, with not all being gassed, some dying from camp conditions and some transferred.

However, Hoess did state under oath the number deported to Auschwitz as best as he could remember it, based on his experiences as camp commandant and in Amtsgruppe D, which under the circumstances counts as a rather remarkable

Your new condition "that he was dead before we heard anything close to that number in connection with his name" is moving the goalposts and irrelevant to our state of knowledge in the present day, as this is 2012 and not 1946. Hoess's public statement at IMT gave a higher number, 2.5M, despite his backpedalling to Gilbert and then later to Jan Sehn, and the IMT affidavit repeats the 2.5M number without giving the enumeration in full, although it does repeat numbers like 400,000 Hungarian Jews.

But as this is 2012 we have NO-1210, his statements to Gilbert, and his memoir which was entered into evidence at his own trial as a series of signed statements, plus remarks to IMT psychologist Leon Goldensohn which also disavowed the higher number, plus his explanation at his own trial as to why he gave a higher number - the British were badgering him with even higher figures and he retorted by repeating a number he claimed to have heard from Eichmann in 1944 (a consistent point in his whole testimony).

That number, 2.5 million, is actually damn close to the total number deported to the camps as a whole.
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Firstly, whatever Hoess may have said about total numbers deported isn't important. We're talking about numbers murdered. You seem to be conflating these two things again.

Secondly, Hoess estimated a total death toll of around three million--half a million from disease and/or starvation and the rest murdered. If he gave an estimate of numbers deported in individual actions from individual countries, he wasn't talking about the numbers who were murdered in individual actions from individual countries. If he broke down the total number of people/Jews who were deported/murdered by individual countries, why would we assume that adding together all the people/Jews deported/murdered from individual countries would give us the total number murdered from all the countries? Did Hoess tell us that the total number was calculated based on the sum of the parts?


Thirdly, "badgering?" That's what the British were doing to Hoess? Whatever you want to call it, at least you're admitting that the British might have had some influence over what Hoess told them.

Fourth, what you're saying is that I'm right. 1.1 million, the current accepted Auschwitz death toll, was never confessed to by any Nazi war criminal nor was any Nazi war criminal convicted of any war crime in connection with that number.
 
Border Reiver said:
What crack are you smoking?

No one needed to be convinced to set up museum space to deal with WWII. It was probably the biggest world-wide sociological and cultural event of the 20th century. In Canada alone it had far reaching sociological effects with over 10% of the total population in the military during the war, the effects of urban shift and industrialization, and the recognition that the old racist attitudes were just not right.
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World War II? What does that have to do with the holocaust?

The small scale acts, when contrasted to Nazi Germany's actions, of the Italian and Japanese internments were minor but this society was able to look at them and see where they could lead and did not like that and began to move away from that mindset. The old ideas are not all gone but are not anywhere near as prevalent or strong.
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"Small scale acts?" "minor?" "This society?" Are you talking about Canada because that doesn't sound like the United States. The Japanese in particular were brutally removed from society. They were forced to abandon their homes and businesses or sell them at pennies on the dollar to greedy anti-Japanese Whites only too eager to exploit the racist politics of the day. They were locked into cattle cars with only what they could carry on their backs. They were taken to Dog forsaken wastelands in the interior of the country and locked behind barbed wire enclosures where they had to remain until their overlords saw fit to release them from their torment. Your dismissal of the horrific conditions in which these people were forced to endure only proves your callous disregard for human dignity. It shows that our society has not even begun to deal with its past. The Germans have faced their shame and are trying to atone for their sins. Evidently the only thing the Americans and Canadians have learned from this dark period in our history is that if hatred and bigotry are going to lead you to identify an entire group of innocent people as criminal enemies of the state and single them out for brutal treatment, it is better to choose a group of people who believe it is impolite to dwell on their people's misfortune rather than a group who base their holidays on it.

The holocaust happened, the Nazis committed a long term and extensive program to isolate the groups they deemed to be unworthy of Germany or the twisted idea they had of it, and to eventually remove them from any possibility of "corrupting" the "German-ness" of that society.
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That's exactly what I say. Why are we arguing?

Denying the Holocaust is in the same vein as denying the Highland Clearances or the Potato Famine only more so as there is plenty more evidence to back up the Holocaust.
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Flat Earth. That's what we're like, the Flat Earth people.
 
000063 said:
Feel free to use a 15-year old encyclopedia and to pretend that the camps were the only places the historical narrative claims Jews were killed.
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Yeah. Really. Fifteen years old! Fifteen years ago we didn't know Jack Diddley Squat about the holocaust! People were just making stuff up back then. But today, well, today we know for sure what happened.

The idiot challenge was to name the six camps (or was it five?) where there were gas chambers. Nobody said name all the places Jews died during the war.


Well, which is it? Is the 1998 Encarta authoritative, or is Wikipedia today?
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Neither mentioned Wolzak so clearly neither can be relied upon.
 
Dogzilla said:
Flat Earth. That's what we're like, the Flat Earth people.
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Hmmmm....The Flat Earth Society provides "tongue in cheek" intentional comedy. The Holocaust Denial movement provides "straight faced" unintentional comedy. I can't see the simularity.
 
Dogzilla said:
Firstly, whatever Hoess may have said about total numbers deported isn't important. We're talking about numbers murdered. You seem to be conflating these two things again.

Secondly, Hoess estimated a total death toll of around three million--half a million from disease and/or starvation and the rest murdered. If he gave an estimate of numbers deported in individual actions from individual countries, he wasn't talking about the numbers who were murdered in individual actions from individual countries. If he broke down the total number of people/Jews who were deported/murdered by individual countries, why would we assume that adding together all the people/Jews deported/murdered from individual countries would give us the total number murdered from all the countries? Did Hoess tell us that the total number was calculated based on the sum of the parts?


Thirdly, "badgering?" That's what the British were doing to Hoess? Whatever you want to call it, at least you're admitting that the British might have had some influence over what Hoess told them.

Fourth, what you're saying is that I'm right. 1.1 million, the current accepted Auschwitz death toll, was never confessed to by any Nazi war criminal nor was any Nazi war criminal convicted of any war crime in connection with that number.
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Lest we forget, the legal or historical relevance of whether a Nazi was prosecuted for murdering 1.1 million Jews or testified to this effect is precisely nil.

For starters the number of Jews who died at Auschwitz is just under 1 million, the balance were non-Jews. 1.1 million Jews were deported to Auschwitz. So your strawmen were factually inaccurate from the get-go.

It's simply ironic that you blethered that 'no Nazi confessed that 1.1 million Jews died at Auschwitz' when the single solitary Nazi who could realistically testify to any number, the camp commandant who also oversaw the camp when he was in Amtsgruppe D, spoke about 1.13 million Jews deported to the camp.

No other Nazi would have been in a job long enough to know such a thing at all. Your strawman expected that future historical knowledge would be current information circulating among the Nazis during the war.

Your other strawman expected that Nazis who shared partial responsibility for the deaths of 1.1 million Jews and non-Jews would be prosecuted for all of them.

You might just as well say that no NKVD official testified to the precise number of deaths in Kolyma, was prosecuted for them or convicted of them. All true statement but just as irrelevant as your pathetic strawmen.
 
Dogzilla said:
Yeah. Really. Fifteen years old! Fifteen years ago we didn't know Jack Diddley Squat about the holocaust! People were just making stuff up back then. But today, well, today we know for sure what happened.
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Actually it's completely obvious that 15 years ago, a sociologist took a mixture of figures from a variety of sources, some of which date back 37 years. The only writer who originated a figure of 1.38 million for Majdanek was Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975, giving no sources for the claim nor any explanation for it. Not even the Poles claimed that many after the war.
 
Dogzilla said:
The idiot challenge was to name the six camps (or was it five?) where there were gas chambers.
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Clayton Moore was asked to name the six camps in Poland considered to be death camps, as in extermination camps.

This evidently proved to be too much of a challenge to his ego and his ability to Google.

So yeah, idiot challenge is a highly apt phrase. Just not in the way you are implying.
 
A fascinating aspect of Holocaust denial is its links to 9/11 Truth. There often indistinguishable and I suppose that is fine as far as it goes.

But an equally bizarre association is the links between Holocaust denial and UFOology and the belief in Extra terrestrials.

Exponents of this that come to mind are Ernst Zundel and Jeff Resne amongst the more well known for this.Another one is David Icke.

Zundel was famous or infamous in an attempt to lead an expedition to the Antarctic to locate Nazi UFO bases
(He is convinced that the Nazis had all the Techno know how to build UFOs).

Would our Holohoaxers like to advance an explanation for this weirdness.? It may indeed by a shared article of faith essential to understanding their belief system.?
 
Nick Terry said:
Lest we forget, the legal or historical relevance of whether a Nazi was prosecuted for murdering 1.1 million Jews or testified to this effect is precisely nil.

For starters the number of Jews who died at Auschwitz is just under 1 million, the balance were non-Jews. 1.1 million Jews were deported to Auschwitz. So your strawmen were factually inaccurate from the get-go.

It's simply ironic that you blethered that 'no Nazi confessed that 1.1 million Jews died at Auschwitz' when the single solitary Nazi who could realistically testify to any number, the camp commandant who also oversaw the camp when he was in Amtsgruppe D, spoke about 1.13 million Jews deported to the camp.

No other Nazi would have been in a job long enough to know such a thing at all. Your strawman expected that future historical knowledge would be current information circulating among the Nazis during the war.

Your other strawman expected that Nazis who shared partial responsibility for the deaths of 1.1 million Jews and non-Jews would be prosecuted for all of them.

You might just as well say that no NKVD official testified to the precise number of deaths in Kolyma, was prosecuted for them or convicted of them. All true statement but just as irrelevant as your pathetic strawmen.
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We went over this months ago - I can't find the posts. IIRC I summarized the data on deportations in to Auschwitz and murders there, answering a question you'd asked. But looking for the posts I found an earlier time Dogzilla lied about the Jaeger (Jagger!) Report and gas chambers: http://www.internationalskeptics.co...=202147&highlight=Anatomy+Death+Camp&page=234.

Edit: found it, on this page: http://www.internationalskeptics.co...3774&highlight=Anatomy+Death+Camp#post7993774
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Number of words: 8174 + How, indeed.


Sorry. The antisemetic whine is never ending. It gets old. The only contact a large majority of people have with Jewish people is the endless barrage of articles whining about alleged antisemitism. Propaganda to make any criticism of people who happen to be Jewish is a criticism of Jewish people because they are Jewish.

8174 words of propaganda crapola.
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Hand wave. Got it.

I can criticize Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm all day long without being thought of as an anti-Semite. I can even criticize Judy Gold. More specifically, her horrible, horrible hair. Eugh.

Speaking of that page Lemmy linked...

Clayton Moore said:
Other than the suffering and rigors of war at the hands of Germans, who considered [the Jews] a Communist menace, they survived the war relatively unscathed as is obvious by their prosperity worldwide after WWII.

More. 416,800, American serviceman were killed than Jewish people died in the Holocaust.
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Was...was this nominated for a Stundie? 'Cause if not, I'll do it right now. The funny thing is that he is now arguing "only" a few million Jews were killed and that the Holocaust happened and why. It's just the numbers he disagreees with.
 
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Dogzilla said:
"Small scale acts?" "minor?" "This society?" Are you talking about Canada because that doesn't sound like the United States. The Japanese in particular were brutally removed from society. They were forced to abandon their homes and businesses or sell them at pennies on the dollar to greedy anti-Japanese Whites only too eager to exploit the racist politics of the day. They were locked into cattle cars with only what they could carry on their backs. They were taken to Dog forsaken wastelands in the interior of the country and locked behind barbed wire enclosures where they had to remain until their overlords saw fit to release them from their torment. Your dismissal of the horrific conditions in which these people were forced to endure only proves your callous disregard for human dignity. It shows that our society has not even begun to deal with its past. The Germans have faced their shame and are trying to atone for their sins. Evidently the only thing the Americans and Canadians have learned from this dark period in our history is that if hatred and bigotry are going to lead you to identify an entire group of innocent people as criminal enemies of the state and single them out for brutal treatment, it is better to choose a group of people who believe it is impolite to dwell on their people's misfortune rather than a group who base their holidays on it.
.
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Tu Quoque.
 
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