Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

[Christopher7]

Jon Cole's experiment demonstrates that therrnate can cut steel beams. Nano-thermite reacts faster than thermate/thermite and can be made explosive. Can you add 2 and 2 ?

I can add 2 and 2

Apparently not.

Thermite as an explosive would make a column laugh.

Molten iron at 4500^oF under high pressure would cut much faster than just thermate or nano-thermite.

Cole's devices require certain shapes. No such device was seen.

No, you can't add 2 and 2. Jon's device is just a rudimentary device to demonstrate the principle. A much more efficient device using nano-thermite would not be a problem for the military.

Your inability to figure these things out stems from your desire not to believe all three buildings were CDs.

 

[000063]

Yet you are unable to provide anything more than unbacked and unsupportable claims on how these Schrodinger's Devices work, which is apparently like thermite or an explosive as a given theory requires at a given point. It's even more of an appeal to magic than usual. You are making a claim about the CIA/military's capabilities that is Not Even Wrong.

So, this high-pressure molten iron; does it cut through the columns and then just stop? Because you're describing a device that creates molten iron then propels it at high speeds using explosives. Which sounds more complicated and unwieldy than regular charges, much analogous to an RPG or shaped charge. And the molten iron would continue right on until it hit something else. It would be flying all over the place, since thermite burns chaotically, and they couldn't time its shutdown precisely.

 

[uglypig]

Molten iron at 4500oF under high pressure would cut much faster than just thermate or nano-thermite

Of course not, because :

1) high pressure can not be achieved without a very quick depletition of the iron

leading to 2

2) the iron needs some time in contact with steel, it just isn't possible to cough a little bit of iron on a column and expect it to melt in one second

 

[thedopefishlives]

Crap.

Of course, if you hire a few talented engineers and tasked them with destroying a building with nano-thermite, I have absolutely no doubt that such an engineering solution WILL be found.

It just is
a) unnecessary
b) totally unproven that something like that happened at all
c) there exists no theory that actually describes such an engineering solution for the towers.

And THAT is why debating details of such a non-existing theory, such as "what about the blinding light" is foolish.

Okay, I will grant you that it is possible for such a solution to be found. I think your higher-level approach to the concept is probably the best way to try to get it across, because the implementation details are certainly beyond the capabilities of any of us, so we probably shouldn't attempt to speak to them. That goes for the truther side as well, though, I feel.

 

[Clayton Moore]

This is also the first time I've ever seen a Truther crazy enough to assert that it was possible to aim WTC 1's collapse at 7. Of course, given that it is impossible to precisely model the collapse of an entire tower even today, it couldn't have been done. Given that they couldn't predict exactly how the plane would hit, they couldn't have placed the explosives precisely. And so on. All you have is appeal to magic.

It's impossible to model because it couldn't have happened with the available energy/forces.

You don't need to simulate the fire to create an authentic model. All you have to do is selectively weaken the model's support structure and attempt to simulate a total collapse.

Besides how difficult could it be to begin with worse than reality situations to see how the undamaged portion of buildings would fair?

 

[pgimeno]

Molten iron at 4500^oF under high pressure would cut much faster than just thermate or nano-thermite.

That's the key. The kind of high pressure you need is that of RDX or HMX, not the one from such a mild explosive as nanothermite can become.

No, you can't add 2 and 2. Jon's device is just a rudimentary device to demonstrate the principle. A much more efficient device using nano-thermite would not be a problem for the military.

That doesn't address my argument that no such device was seen. None were found in the many columns analyzed and/or recovered by FEMA and NIST, and no unusual cut was there either.

Your inability to figure these things out stems from your desire not to believe all three buildings were CDs.

That's what you think. Doesn't it occur to you that I'm one step ahead figuring out where the problems are, what should have been observed, and how plausible is it?

 

[triforcharity]

No. I'm agreeing with them on FFA and pointing out that their fire simulation does not match the photos.

You're claiming to know better about fire science than Fire protection engineers, and people with fire science degrees. Amazing. But yet, you're different. Please explain how your analysis is better than NIST's, but people like FEMR2's are invalid.......

 

[Animal]

No, those floors were mechanical floors. Devices small enough to carry in a bag pack. As Qystein put it - arguments from impossibility just don't cut it.

Which is why your claim of a back pack size device falls into the argument form impossibility.

Floor 5 had half closed metal louvers, tons of big mechanical equipment, possibly heavy smoke (before the collapse).

Half closed......just shot yourself in the foot there.

 

[Animal]

I am not assuming.
Water jets can cut through steel too, and I am sure there are a hundred more methods that can be thought of that can cut steel as well. To claim a "hypothesis" of how it happened without detailing how it ALL happened is pointless and deserves ridicule.

Absolutely.
Did uglypig nake such a claim, presented as fact? No.

Who said anything about presented as fact?

 

[grandmastershek]

Derp

 

[chrismohr]

ETA:
"It can't be because" is not a valid argument because it is just your opinion based on your limited knowledge. Your claim the a bright light would be visible thru the smoke is not backed up by anything.

You now know that the Jon Cole thermite beam cutting device produced a bright light for about 10 seconds. If you persist in claiming a thermite beam cutting device would produce a bright light for 45 seconds, then that would constitute lying.

False. Thermite/nano-thermite used on the lower floors would be covered by the debris of about 30 floors.

That depends on how much thermite is burned. Your 45 seconds only applies to the amount used in the videos you have seen and burning free. You are erroneously using a large amount of thermite burning free and claim that would be the case in a cutting device which you now know would be much shorter.

ETA: The building was a pile of rubble with the thermite buried in 7 seconds

Evidence of thermate [fingerprint] was found in sample #1 and FEMA said further study was needed but NIST did not address this evidence in their final report on WTC 7. There is no legitimate scientific explanation for the presence of the sulfur, other than thermate, which allowed melting at a much lower temperature than steel normally melts.

Nano-thermite was found in the dust, your denial notwithstanding.

Over 100 witnesses heard explosions [that could have been explosives] and you know it. So why are you still making that false claim?

Wires are not necessary as you have been informed so why are you still making that false claim?

I went back and looked over several thermite videos. Jon Cole's small quantities burned about ten seconds, as you said. Other thermite demonstrations with larger amounts of thermites burned for 15 to 20 seconds. Some burned for around 40-45 seconds. So you are right to call me on the 40 second claim. I can't prove that. How long would tons of thermite in large enough quantities to cut through dozens of large WTC columns burn? I don't know. I assumed about 40 seconds, in other words the longest amount of time I have seen thermite burn in videos, longer than Cole's small-scale experiments. Seemed like a reasonable assumption: bigger columns, more thermitics, longer burning time, but I have no proof of that. My gut still tells me I'd be right but hey, I can't prove it in this case.

 

[Christopher7]

I went back and looked over several thermite videos. Jon Cole's small quantities burned about ten seconds, as you said. Other thermite demonstrations with larger amounts of thermites burned for 15 to 20 seconds. Some burned for around 40-45 seconds. So you are right to call me on the 40 second claim. I can't prove that.

Thank you very much.

How long would tons of thermite in large enough quantities to cut through dozens of large WTC columns burn?

Impossible to say because we can only guess about the possibilities of nano-thermite.

This is my take based on the info I have:
Nano-thermite can be an incendiary, an explosive, or anything in between. The noise level could be controlled this way. Nano-thermite can be mixed with other explosives and make them many times more powerful thus reducing the amount needed.

The bright light from cutting the core columns would not be seen from the north side because there are walls in between. The exterior columns would probably be be rigged above the dropped ceilings so very little light would be emitted.

I don't know. I assumed about 40 seconds, in other words the longest amount of time I have seen thermite burn in videos, longer than Cole's small-scale experiments. Seemed like a reasonable assumption: bigger columns, more thermitics, longer burning time, but I have no proof of that. My gut still tells me I'd be right but hey, I can't prove it in this case.

In a debate, especially a rebuttal, you have to back up your statements with proper scientific references. Thanks again for being honest about it and changing your position. I have to do that occasionally too.

 

[GlennB]

The exterior columns would probably be be rigged above the dropped ceilings so very little light would be emitted.

In a debate, especially a rebuttal, you have to back up your statements with proper scientific references.

That combination made me laugh What's your "proper scientific reference" to the capabilities of nano-thermite?

While you're here, tell us how many exterior columns need cutting in how many places over how many floors in your scenario?

 

[Christopher7]

What's your "proper scientific reference" to the capabilities of nano-thermite?

Clapsaddle et al 2004
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/307362.pdf

Pg 4
In addition, due to the large availability of organically functionalized silanes, the silicon oxide phase can be used as a unique way of introducing organic additives into the bulk metal oxide materials. These organic additives can cause the generation of gas upon ignition of the materials, therefore resulting in a composite material that can perform pressure/volume work. Furthermore, the desired organic functionality is well dispersed throughout the composite material on the nanoscale with the other components, and is therefore subject to the same increased reaction kinetics. The resulting nanoscale distribution of all the ingredients displays energetic properties not seen in its microscale counterparts due to the expected increase of mass transport rates between the reactants. The synthesis and characterization of iron(III) oxide/organosilicon oxide nanocomposites and their performance as energetic materials will be discussed.

Pg 5
We have previously prepared pyrotechnic and explosive composites based on thermite reactions whose fuel and oxidizer constituents are intimately mixed on the nanometer-sized scale. These energetic nanocomposites, in an attempt to prepare a high energy, high power energetic nanocomposite as discussed above, are prepared by taking advantage of the unique nano-architecture and mixing properties provided by sol-gel chemistry. One limitation inherent in any thermite energetic, however, is the inability of the energetic material to do pressure/ volume-work on an object. Thermites release energy in the form of heat and light, but are unable to move objects. Typically, work can be done by a rapidly produced gas that is released during the energetic reaction. In the case of the thermite energetic composite, a “gas generator” can be added to the composite mixture, however, this additive will be subject to the same mass transport issues mentioned above.

While you're here, tell us how many exterior columns need cutting in how many places over how many floors in your scenario?

All of them on 7 floors.

Possible scenario:
Floor 4 was building management/maintenance and the cafeteria. Rigged above dropped ceiling during off hours by the Acme Cable Co.
Floors 5 and 6 were mechanical rooms and could have been rigged with very few people knowing about it.
Floors 14 thru 17 were vacant and could have been rigged with only the riggers [Ace Remodel Co.] knowing about it.

That’s 7 floors x 12.75 = 89 feet.
FFA for 2.25s = 81.4 feet
http://www.calcresult.com/mech-eng/ballistics/freefall.html

 

[GlennB]

Clapsaddle et al 2004
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/307362.pdf

...
One limitation inherent in any thermite energetic, however, is the inability of the energetic material to do pressure/ volume-work on an object. Thermites release energy in the form of heat and light, but are unable to move objects. Typically, work can be done by a rapidly produced gas that is released during the energetic reaction. In the case of the thermite energetic composite, a “gas generator” can be added to the composite mixture, however, this additive will be subject to the same mass transport issues mentioned above.

...

Even without that proviso there's no mention of how these things actually work in the field, so you're still looking for a reference, Chris.

All of them on 7 floors.

Possible scenario:
Floor 4 was building management/maintenance and the cafeteria. Rigged above dropped ceiling during off hours by the Acme Cable Co.
Floors 5 and 6 were mechanical rooms and could have been rigged with very few people knowing about it.
Floors 14 thru 17 were vacant and could have been rigged with only the riggers [Ace Remodel Co.] knowing about it.

That’s 7 floors x 12.75 = 89 feet.
FFA for 2.25s = 81.4 feet
http://www.calcresult.com/mech-eng/ballistics/freefall.html

80 columns, each cut top+bottom, multiple sides per column (say 2 to be insanely generous), 7 floors. That's 2240 devices to be installed with many of them abutting or even inside elevator shafts and the like. All fittings, drywall and fireproofing to be removed and disposed of. And then there's the kicker charges to shift the cut columns out of the way, but we'll let that pass. And the timing to make it simultaneous, a requirement of yours.

It's a nonsense. A fantasy.

 

[tsig]

Clapsaddle et al 2004
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/307362.pdf

Pg 4
In addition, due to the large availability of organically functionalized silanes, the silicon oxide phase can be used as a unique way of introducing organic additives into the bulk metal oxide materials. These organic additives can cause the generation of gas upon ignition of the materials, therefore resulting in a composite material that can perform pressure/volume work. Furthermore, the desired organic functionality is well dispersed throughout the composite material on the nanoscale with the other components, and is therefore subject to the same increased reaction kinetics. The resulting nanoscale distribution of all the ingredients displays energetic properties not seen in its microscale counterparts due to the expected increase of mass transport rates between the reactants. The synthesis and characterization of iron(III) oxide/organosilicon oxide nanocomposites and their performance as energetic materials will be discussed.

Pg 5
We have previously prepared pyrotechnic and explosive composites based on thermite reactions whose fuel and oxidizer constituents are intimately mixed on the nanometer-sized scale. These energetic nanocomposites, in an attempt to prepare a high energy, high power energetic nanocomposite as discussed above, are prepared by taking advantage of the unique nano-architecture and mixing properties provided by sol-gel chemistry. One limitation inherent in any thermite energetic, however, is the inability of the energetic material to do pressure/ volume-work on an object. Thermites release energy in the form of heat and light, but are unable to move objects. Typically, work can be done by a rapidly produced gas that is released during the energetic reaction. In the case of the thermite energetic composite, a “gas generator” can be added to the composite mixture, however, this additive will be subject to the same mass transport issues mentioned above.


All of them on 7 floors.

Possible scenario:
Floor 4 was building management/maintenance and the cafeteria. Rigged above dropped ceiling during off hours by the Acme Cable Co.
Floors 5 and 6 were mechanical rooms and could have been rigged with very few people knowing about it.
Floors 14 thru 17 were vacant and could have been rigged with only the riggers [Ace Remodel Co.] knowing about it.

That’s 7 floors x 12.75 = 89 feet.
FFA for 2.25s = 81.4 feet
http://www.calcresult.com/mech-eng/ballistics/freefall.html

What happened to those 'riggers'?

 

[Christopher7]

Even without that proviso there's no mention of how these things actually work in the field

Correct.

80 columns, each cut top+bottom, multiple sides per column (say 2 to be insanely generous), 7 floors. That's 2240 devices to be installed with many of them abutting or even inside elevator shafts and the like. All fittings, drywall and fireproofing to be removed and disposed of. And then there's the kicker charges to shift the cut columns out of the way, but we'll let that pass. And the timing to make it simultaneous, a requirement of yours.

It's a nonsense. A fantasy.

The way you would do it.

There were 82 columns. 24 core columns and 58 exterior columns [there was a 14a]

Columns 79, 80 and 81 need only be rigged on 2 floors.

79 columns per floor x 7 floors = 553 shaped to fit an H column, wireless cutter/kickers. Just get yerself an 8 foot step ladder and a 4" drywall knife [ETA: and a shop vac]. Slide a ceiling tile aside and scrape the insulation off wide enough for the cutter/kicker. Slide the shaped to fit cutter/kicker [with built in clamps] on the H column up against the floor above, tighten it down, cover liberally with foam insulation and voilà.

 

[000063]

And, of course, no one notices the men installing these hundreds of Schrodinger's Charges.

You're still speculating about the nature of the devices. And there's no way these can be wireless and reliably expected to receive the signal. They all require wiring. And if the fire is damaging the columns, it can easily damage the charges which are on the columns.

It's impossible to model because it couldn't have happened with the available energy/forces.

It's impossible to model because it is incredibly complex. In the case of the plane impacts, they could not predict their impact with any accuracy worthy of the name in order to place explosives in "safe" locations.

You don't need to simulate the fire to create an authentic model. All you have to do is selectively weaken the model's support structure and attempt to simulate a total collapse.

I didn't say anything about fire. The plane impacts were not selective weakening, they were chaotic events with a shedload of random factors. They were unpredictable in anything more granular than broad terms.

Besides how difficult could it be to begin with worse than reality situations to see how the undamaged portion of buildings would fair?

Even those are generalizations based on known factors. Known. There were so many random factors in just one collapse that it is impossible to predict. In 7's case, the random factors arise from the random factors that affected 1's collapse. It's doubly impossible.

And, of course, you're avoiding the questions I said you would avoid.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8302459#post8302459

 

[000063]

delete

 

[Animal]

That combination made me laugh What's your "proper scientific reference" to the capabilities of nano-thermite?

While you're here, tell us how many exterior columns need cutting in how many places over how many floors in your scenario?

Any of these "clandestine" installation claims make me laugh. They have no clue how things worked in a large modern office building in NYC.

Then we can take it to the next step.......without precutting / weakening of the building structure, the size of the required charge gets a lot bigger. (I am sure the experts in that field can expand on that......and by experts......I don't mean carpenters)

There was no sound of explosions heard......so now we are into hush a boom explosives, and there was no seismic signature, which means there was no pressure wave.....in other words......only magic explosives could do the job.