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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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You really have no actual clue as to how the world works outside of your basement do you?

You may wish to consider parts shortages, and the general lack of mechanization that was extant in Nazi Germany which would limit the number of spare engines available.

Ever had to have a car engine repaired? Similar parts are NOT interchangable between different manufacturers, or even different models of engines (a 500cc engine made by Ford does not use the same parts as one made by White Star). Ever been told, "Sorry, we don't have any of that part in stock, but we can get your part in three days."? That's in an economy where there is no war time stress on your parts manufacturing capacity, transportation capacity and international orders aren't that much of a hassle.

And that has what to do with the alleged plan to exterminate the Jewish people? You're saying the Germans were killing Jewish people 24/7 with these gas chambers and an engine wasn't available so they just stopped?

The availability of spare engines was the reason the alleged gas chambers were built in the first place?


The whole ritual scenario of bringing people to Poland, maintaining them for months or years and then allegedly killing them, is so irrational and counterproductive it never freaking happened.
 
this is irelevent tosh about the engine spares, the reason the gas chambers were turned to was capacity..........

Now stop trying to shore up a roof that has already collapsed around you
 
The Holocaust is simply a premise needed to fulfill a Jewish prophecy

What prophecy?

The third time the lie was used seems to have been believed. For now.

http://globalfire.tv/nj/04en/jews/6millionlie.htm

Any actual evidence that the other two were made. Otherwise it it more of a "Well, this guy I know was talking to someone and they said that he'd heard that this other person had said this fantastic thing."


And you other quote sounds like it was heavy on the sarcasm. I've heard similar quotes from Canadian Hong Kong Vets about reparations from Japan.
 
The whole ritual scenario of bringing people to Poland, maintaining them for months or years and then allegedly killing them, is so irrational and counterproductive.


Read* about the governance of the Reich. 'Half-ass' was practically Hilters' middle name.



*Oh, who am I kidding....
 
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[qimg]http://s18.postimage.org/l988a8ua1/Scarecrow.jpg[/qimg]

Do you have any, you know, data showing that the concentration camp workers were the "most productive the world has ever seen?" Maybe you can show us a comparison units produced per diem by concentration camp workers compared to laborers elsewhere during different periods?

Are you aware of how many people were murdered by the Nazis, buried in mass graves, dug up, incinerated, and reburied over what period of time? I would love to show you a comparison between the Nazi death factories and other death factories but I have not been able to find an example that comes close.
 
The numbers game is an irrelavnce another trick the deneirs like to play, yes we know aobut all the others it still does not excuse what the Nazis did
 
Once again we see the irrelevent numbers game the deniers like to play, msot of us are totally aware of all the other orgnaised massacres.

They DO NOT EXCUSE what the Nazis did
 
Are you aware of how many people were murdered by the Nazis, buried in mass graves, dug up, incinerated, and reburied over what period of time? I would love to show you a comparison between the Nazi death factories and other death factories but I have not been able to find an example that comes close.

Why would you have to compare the Sonderkommandos' efficiency with that of other "death factory" workers? There are a number of similar tasks, such as mining. And if you want to prove that the Sonderkommandos were the most efficient workers ever, you would go out and produce such a comparison.

Even if the claim above is true, it doesn't cast doubt on the existence of the rectal stimulation experiment you mentioned. The Nazis found a way to cause involuntary ejaculation to gather semen for a control sample in a sterilization experiment. There was obviously no way to produce involuntary forced labor, so they had to use other means.
 
Are you aware of how many people were murdered by the Nazis, buried in mass graves, dug up, incinerated, and reburied over what period of time?

More than 5 million in three years, across many different sites, just counting Jewish victims of the Nazis. So?

I would love to show you a comparison between the Nazi death factories and other death factories but I have not been able to find an example that comes close.

Since there were many Nazi death factories then one can quite easily compare between them. I don't think anyone has claimed they were all equally efficient.

One can also compare with other industries or facilities, like garbage dumps, coal mines, and the like, which process materials vastly bulkier or heavier than the death camps had to deal with. Or indeed with the clean-up work after foot-and-mouth epidemics. Or lots of other things.

The Nazis took 13 months to kill, bury, exhume and cremate all the victims of Treblinka, and they did those things in partial series with only some overlap between killing/burying and exhumation/cremation. Belzec operated as a killing site for just over 9 months and then took seven months to clean up. So 16 months in all. Auschwitz operated for nearly 30 months as a death camp, and it was the only place where they properly figured out how to carry out the tasks in parallel.

If you're going to discuss efficiency, then you're going to have to break the habit of a lifetime and discuss all the death camps together.
 
People don't perform well sexually when anxious or under pressure, two categories putting a gun into their head would fall into. I'm not talking "wank or die!", I'm talking on a physiological level. It becomes much harder--no pun intended--to maintain an erection while worried, even if it's just about one's performance, not one's life. This is a medical fact. It would be inefficient anyway when the doctors can just make them ejaculate whether they want to or not.

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v15/n2s/full/3900994a.html
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/erectile-dysfunction/ds00162/dsection=causes

Feel free to present a comparative analysis of why the gun to the head would be better than a stick up the bum. Explain why one would be better than the other.

So incredulity is the only thing you have? Why not just inject petrol into the man's heart and then, after making a lampshade out of his skin, stuffing mattresses with his hair, smelting his gold fillings, and shrinking his head, just cut off his testicles and count the sperm before sending what's left to the soap factory? That would be the Nazi way, you know.
 
So... instead of doing what everyone else would do, namely look up the relevant chapter on medical experiments at Auschwitz and start digesting the information conveyed there on the relevant point, you start with the introduction and find some remarks which sound a bit wanky to you, which actually aren't very wanky at all, and then dismiss the source.

Uh-huh. Suuuure that's really going to work.

Oh Nick, oh Nick...

I did not dismiss the source. You are a confused. I only made a criticism of the source. The link is still there, anyone is able to read it.

Anyway, read the introduction of the source is essential. You skip introductions when you read books?

Do you suggest to skip book introductions when lecturing your module "Perspective on Sources" at Exeter University?

Still, page 282 of the book and the subsequent page reference three eyewitness accounts describing Schumann's methods of getting sperm samples. The last witness is sourced to the Dering vs Uris libel trial, citing Hill and Williams, Auschwitz in England, pp. 18-19, which resulted in a pretty exhaustive record of Schumann's experiments because Wladyslaw Dering assisted in them.

Well done Dr Terry!

You produce the URL direct to the quote you wish to present to support your argument.

I am glad you are learning to improve the URL citation.

That's how sane people engage in fact-checking. Lifton could have been a screaming Marxist or crazed hippie or even an unreconstructed Nazi but none of that matters when the issue is fact-checking.

I like that...

"Fact-checking"!

For an unknown reason I read:

Fat-checking!

Your fat posts have an sense of fat-fact-checking.
 
Are you aware of how many people were murdered by the Nazis, buried in mass graves, dug up, incinerated, and reburied over what period of time? I would love to show you a comparison between the Nazi death factories and other death factories but I have not been able to find an example that comes close.

I guess they ignore the physical improbability of that nonsense.

Too small an area.

The actual work of burying, digging up, cremating, reburying.

A huge BUT to explain where the imaginary bodies of imaginary exterminated Jewish people went.

All the freaking convoluted explanations of why the Germans didn't perform tasks in the most expeditious manner. Over and over and over and over and over. It's enough to gag a maggot.
 
That is pretty unlikely.

Aleskei Stakhanov supposedly mined 102 tons of coal in six hours. Of course, he had support and tools, but then we know that Sonderkommandos also had mechanical assistance when doing their jobs.

If we take the grisly figure of 15,000 tons of decomposing corpses that had to be shifted from the Belzec mass graves onto pyres and burned, versus a figure of 600 workers, over the six months they supposedly worked at this task, then we find that the 'productivity' of the corpse-removers and burners was 83.3 tons per day as a collective, and 138.8kg per individual worker per day.

Since wood requirements were with the effects of scale at not much more than 1:1, the 'average' individual Sonderkommando would theoretically have shifted less than 300kg of material in a single working day of 12 hours, which is pretty clearly well under Stakhanov's achievement. Indeed the Sonderkommandos were thus performing at about 1/700th of the efficiency of Aleksei Stakhanov.

There does seem to be some doubt over his accomplishments. But in any case, decomposing bodies and coal aren't the same thing. Unlike the death camp sondercommando, Stakhanov didn't have to put the coal in the ground first. Stakhanov accomplishments didn't require burning the coal either. But if it had, he would find coal burns easier than corpses.

The productivity of the corpse removers and burners is only part of the process. If they're using mechanical scoops, it would make that end of the job much easier than if they had to do it by hand. The other end of the process is where the amazing feats of productivity occur--removing the bodies from the gas chambers and arranging them in the mass graves to achieve a density far greater than that of any other mass grave. It's extremely demanding physically but it also requires highly developed visual spatial skills and a degree of coordination between workers--a degree of coordination that would need to be developed with a staff that is comprised of people who have been on the job for no more than a couple of weeks.
 
Not to get too deep in what seems like a sick exercise in misapplied physics, but my own first-approximation assumption was that the sheer mass of the pile and the mechanical efforts used to achieve it would result in significant mechanical deformation of the tissues. (...)

How many weight can a human skeleton support before a critical fracture?
 
Snaketongue, who claims to research WWII weaponry hasn't read Von Luck's book, Panzer Commander, either. In that book Von Luck talks about weapons, tactics and trying to get his 1/8th Jewish girlfriend, Dagmar's, father out of the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. I think Snaketongue just looks at pictures and Youtube.

Andrew Matthew, you think wrong.

I research the whole cyberspace. I do not limit my queries to pictures and videos. I read textual and mathematical information as much I can.

I also have been in the Internet page you support it and the newspaper page which you participate...
 
There does seem to be some doubt over his accomplishments. But in any case, decomposing bodies and coal aren't the same thing. Unlike the death camp sondercommando, Stakhanov didn't have to put the coal in the ground first. Stakhanov accomplishments didn't require burning the coal either. But if it had, he would find coal burns easier than corpses.

Coal mining is undoubtedly harder physical labour than the work of the Sonderkommandos. We also have some nice points of comparison between German coal miners and foreigners including Soviet POWs who were forced down German mines in WWII. Unsurprisingly, the Soviet POWs had a lower productivity than the German coal miners.

The productivity of the corpse removers and burners is only part of the process. If they're using mechanical scoops, it would make that end of the job much easier than if they had to do it by hand.

And in several places they used excavators. Your point?

The other end of the process is where the amazing feats of productivity occur--removing the bodies from the gas chambers and arranging them in the mass graves to achieve a density far greater than that of any other mass grave.

Very few other mass graves were as continually added to as the mass graves at the death camps.

It's extremely demanding physically but it also requires highly developed visual spatial skills and a degree of coordination between workers--a degree of coordination that would need to be developed with a staff that is comprised of people who have been on the job for no more than a couple of weeks.

I think a far better comparison is with landfill sites. The graves were filled continuously over a period of weeks and months, during which time decomposition as well as sheer physical pressure solved all the space problems perfectly well.

Belzec was closed at the end of 1942 to new 'business' because the graves were overflowing. There were still more than 150,000 Jews in Galicia to kill, though, which would have been an increase of 1/3 on the actual death toll. So the Nazis machine-gunned the remaining 150,000 Galician Jews into smaller mass graves right where they lived, leaving many dozens of mass graves dotted all over the eastern Galician countryside. That was in addition to the 78 mass graves they left dotted all over the western Galician countryside with many 10s of 1000s of bodies in them.

There is only one possible explanation as to why Belzec needed 21,000 cubic metres of grave space. Even Snakey managed to kill off nearly 280,000 victims into those graves, which would leave 150,000 supposedly unaccounted for since we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that 434,000 Jews were deported to Belzec.

We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that more than half that number were deported westwards from eastern Galicia to Belzec and that the rest were deported eastwards from western Galicia and the Lublin area.

The day when someone tells me about a colony of Jews from Krakow somewhere to the east of Belzec, or a camp which held previously unaccounted for Jews from Lwow to the west of Belzec, is the day I might take denier gibberish slightly more seriously.

There is simply no explanation which can leave out the facts regarding where the victims came from and remain even vaguely honest or coherent. Yet in all the pseudomaths and amidst all the incredulity from the Dead Nazi PR Machine, we absolutely never hear about those basic, undeniable facts, which are utterly intrinsic to the history of Belzec and cannot be abstracted away with a handwave.

It's perfectly clear that the Belzec mass graves could accommodate all the victims allowing for decomposition and the fact that the camp closed when the graves overflowed. None of the arm-twirling from the DNPRM changes that. But you're doubly screwed because in all of your handwaving you've neglected to account for the deportations and thus the identity of the victims. Not to mention the undeniable fact that Jews who according to the documented Nazi coverstory were supposed to be going east were actually going in utterly the wrong direction.

Your arguments are excruciatingly tedious, because they never bother to think things through several steps ahead. You just say one thing and leave the whole issue hanging in mid-air, then try to change the subject.
 
Andrew Matthew, you think wrong.

Matthew Ellard isn't actually called Andrew.

I research the whole cyberspace. I do not limit my queries to pictures and videos. I read textual and mathematical information as much I can.

I also have been in the Internet page you support it and the newspaper page which you participate...

a one-man search engine which keeps on breaking down....
 
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