Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

Point taken. But a broken nose, two black eyes and head lacerations from a single punch still seems unlikely to me. Plus for the reasons already stated that you omitted from your quote.

IIRC, the head wounds are higher up on the head. As if someone is trying to get up, and the head is rotated back farther and banged on the ground.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I think it is a bit premature to say TM's hands were "virtually unmarked".

Was there any doubt he'd instantly embrace the one article that tells the story he wants it to be? I thinks it's entirely possible msnbc got it right...or wrong. Who knows?

 

[Ausmerican]

Point taken. But a broken nose, two black eyes and head lacerations from a single punch still seems unlikely to me. Plus for the reasons already stated that you omitted from your quote.

I only omitted them because I wasn't addressing them, just the physical injuries. The screams are not something I have formed much of an opinion on as yet.

 

[johnny karate]

Was there any doubt he'd instantly embrace the one article that tells the story he wants it to be? I thinks it's entirely possible msnbc got it right...or wrong. Who knows?

How shocking that the initial reports of Martin's injuries were so "instantly embraced" by everyone, even to the point of embellishment:

No doubt George also sneaked into the medical examiners morgue and put bruises on Trayvon Martin's knuckles.

... but when details come out which diminish that initial report, suddenly we're back to the "You can't trust the media" line.

How very shocking indeed.

 

[GWCarver]

Fair enough. But it's from the autopsy report. I suppose one could argue that MSNBC completely manufactured that statement, but until I see evidence to the contrary I have no reason to disbelieve it.



"Team Martin" doesn't represent a person who was there (and is still living) and can provide factual information. Everything they have to say about the case is speculation, which is why I don't give any of it much credence.



I didn't disregard the content, I actually acknowledged it for the nonsense that it is. The medical report indicates the cuts were healing fine on their own (look up the term "well approximated" in relation to wounds), and that no sutures were needed. It's idiotic to suggest a cut healing on its own would need stitches if you re-opened it. Why would anyone re-open a healing cut?

That "nonsense" was Z's doctor's reasoning as to why he didn't receive any stitches.

Since you believe everything from NBC until you see evidence to the contrary, here's something they put up that I didn't think was supported well enough to post, but consider it just for you:

"George Zimmerman’s lawyer has signaled that he may seek a dismissal of the second degree murder charges against his client under Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law. NBC’s Michael Isikoff reports."

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47453093/#47453093

 

[johnny karate]

That "nonsense" was Z's father's secondhand account of the doctor's reasoning as to why he didn't receive any stitches.

ftfy

Since you believe everything from NBC until you see evidence to the contrary...

And, of course, the ridiculous double standard continues. The initial report that appears to favor Zimmerman is accepted by all. The next, more detailed report which doesn't appear to favor Zimmerman is questioned, and anyone who accepts it is implied to be gullible.

 

[This is The End]

If you think there is some biased discussion going on here check out this Orlando Sentinal comment page from yesterday:

http://discussions.orlandosentinel....days-buzz-george-zimmerman-injuries-051712/10

<snip>

broken nose, two black eyes and lacerations on the back of his head the day after his fatal confrontation with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. ABC said it had obtained a medical report that documents Zimmerman's injuries.

<snip>

Florida's stand your ground law allows people who feel threatened by death or serious injury to respond with deadly force. If the injuries are confirmed, will Zimmerman walk? Or is it more important and more incriminating that Zimmerman was armed and followed Trayvon, even though police told him not to? Talk about it!

...and that's before the comments.

 

[LTC8K6]

Was there any doubt he'd instantly embrace the one article that tells the story he wants it to be? I thinks it's entirely possible msnbc got it right...or wrong. Who knows?

I didn't expect any injuries at all on TM. There's nothing in GZ's story that would indicate or require that TM would be injured.

The knuckle injury is extra, but not necessary, imo.

 

[WildCat]

I was hit dead in the nose by a baseball. Broke my nose. No black eyes.

You took your eyes off the ball.

/chico escuela

 

[LTC8K6]

You took your eyes off the ball.

/chico escuela

Yeah. I was playing third base. My Mom was walking by the field, going to the grocery store. Just as the pitcher throws the pitch, she decides to ask me a question as she's walking by...

 

[GWCarver]

ftfy



And, of course, the ridiculous double standard continues. The initial report that appears to favor Zimmerman is accepted by all. The next, more detailed report which doesn't appear to favor Zimmerman is questioned, and anyone who accepts it is implied to be gullible.

Please don't change my words and leave my handle on the resulting concoction. It doesn't represent what I actually said and I find it annoying. I was responding to posts regarding what Zimmerman's father said about stitches, and responded with what Zimmerman's father actually said about stitches. If you think he is lying, put up a source to support it instead of implying I am trying to mislead anyone.

I don't know really know what you are talking about with regard to the two versions of the report. Both favor Zimmerman, one more than the other. We may get a third version today, who knows. All that matters is facts, and right now we have two different versions coming from a report that is unlikely to have any ambiguity once it is made public.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not surprised to see you derided for your previous post. It's a hostile thread.

Or, perhaps, based on timeline, witness reports, etc., a 'one punch' theory seems ridiculous ?

Of course, no one is going to offer you an explanation for how Martin's hands remained virtually unmarked after supposedly delivering a beating to Zimmerman.

OTOH, of course, no one is going to offer you an explanation for how Martin's hands remained virtually unmarked after supposedly fighting for his life against a viscous murderer.

Nor will any of these people acknowledge the deceptions coming from the Zimmerman camp regarding his injuries (e.g. Zimmerman's former lawyer and father suggesting a need for stitches, Zimmerman walking around the next day with two large butterfly bandages for minor cuts).

They both claimed the doctor said it 'it could have been stitched if it wasn't already healing' - really, I still don't understand your reluctance to admit the possibility of a doctor saying 'had you come to me last night, I would have stitched it, but it seems to be healing fine now, so leave it alone.' and then putting a butterfly bandage to make sure it stayed closed. Unless you think GZ bandaged the back of his head himself ... maybe after he broke his own nose ? Since he went to the doctor, it seems reasonable to assume the doctor bandaged the cuts, yes ?

But, of course, the funeral director who failed to notice a tiny abrasion on Martin's knuckle is a blatant liar.

When he says he has handled the bodies of many homicide victims in his career, he is implying he has the experience to make conclusions about his examinations. He volunteered to make the TV circuit claiming he examined the hands and knuckles and found nothing. He has definite opinions about the case and the investigation: “I think the police investigation was the most unprofessional one I've ever seen in my lifetime,” Kurtz said.

So he set himself up to be viewed as incompetent, or a liar with an agenda.
The latter seems more likely to me.

 

[johnny karate]

Please don't change my words and leave my handle on the resulting concoction. It doesn't represent what I actually said and I find it annoying. I was responding to posts regarding what Zimmerman's father said about stitches, and responded with what Zimmerman's father actually said about stitches. If you think he is lying, put up a source to support it instead of implying I am trying to mislead anyone.

I never said he was lying, nor do I need a source to point out that his statement is illogical. If you have a counter argument, let's see it.

I don't know really know what you are talking about with regard to the two versions of the report. Both favor Zimmerman, one more than the other. We may get a third version today, who knows. All that matters is facts, and right now we have two different versions coming from a report that is unlikely to have any ambiguity once it is made public.

What I'm "talking about" is self-evident in the thread.

 

[crimresearch]

Perhaps his right hand was trying, ultimately unsuccessfully, to prevent a gun being trained on him?

GZs injuries, broken nose, black eyes, abrasions to the back of the head, are easily accounted for by one punch to the nose followed by falling over and hitting the back of his head. Also, punching someone in the nose wont harm or mark up your knuckles.

That would be quite an impact for one off-handed punch.

 

[johnny karate]

Or, perhaps, based on timeline, witness reports, etc., a 'one punch' theory seems ridiculous ?

I'm not sure how the timeline factors in, nor have we seen any official witness statements that report Martin was repeatedly punching Zimmerman. And if we did, those statements would be at odds with the physical evidence.

OTOH, of course, no one is going to offer you an explanation for how Martin's hands remained virtually unmarked after supposedly fighting for his life against a viscous murderer.

I count at least two straw men in that statement.

They both claimed the doctor said it 'it could have been stitched if it wasn't already healing' - really, I still don't understand your reluctance to admit the possibility of a doctor saying 'had you come to me last night, I would have stitched it, but it seems to be healing fine now, so leave it alone.'

I admit the possibility, just not the probability. Medical professionals who looked at it the night before did nothing more than clean it up, and by the next day it was healing just fine without the aid of stitches. Logic would dictate an injury of that nature never needed stitches in the first place.

... and then putting a butterfly bandage to make sure it stayed closed. Unless you think GZ bandaged the back of his head himself ... maybe after he broke his own nose ? Since he went to the doctor, it seems reasonable to assume the doctor bandaged the cuts, yes ?

Butterfly bandages are for the express purpose of holding a wound closed. Why would a doctor apply that type of bandage to a wound that was already closed?

When he says he has handled the bodies of many homicide victims in his career, he is implying he has the experience to make conclusions about his examinations.

What do you imagine handling the bodies of homicide victims has to do with detecting tiny abrasions?

He volunteered to make the TV circuit claiming he examined the hands and knuckles and found nothing. He has definite opinions about the case and the investigation: “I think the police investigation was the most unprofessional one I've ever seen in my lifetime,” Kurtz said.

So he set himself up to be viewed as incompetent, or a liar with an agenda.
The latter seems more likely to me.

And you go with that. As I said, I don't really care. Maybe he is lying. It's not like he's a central figure to the case whose opinion means anything in determining the facts.

However, you probably shouldn't stake out such a position after just lecturing me about refusing to entertain innocuous possibilities regarding the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story. It reeks of bias.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...ers-stop-leaks-release-records-152333240.html

They really don't have anything, I guess. All we hear is the stuff about "pursuit".

"It was leaked for a beneficial purpose, certainly to help George Zimmerman's claim of self-defense," Crump said. "This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye."

"You have to look at this in the full context," he continued. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

According to NBC News, the multi-page autopsy says that Martin was "killed by a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest," with the entrance wound "located on his left chest 17 inches below the head. The single bullet passed directly from the front to the back, through his lungs, creating perforations." The only injuries to Martin are from the gunshot and to one knuckle, "a quarter-inch to one-eighth inch abrasion on the fourth finger in the ring area."

The gunshot wound entrance was from a bullet fired from "intermediate range," or two-to-four inches, "a soot ring abrasion and a two-inch by two-inch area of stippling" on his body.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think they are hanging their hat on "profiled", "pursuit", and "confronted".

Under that law, that shouldn't work at all in this case, as far as I can tell.

 

[GWCarver]

I never said he was lying, nor do I need a source to point out that his statement is illogical. If you have a counter argument, let's see it.


What I'm "talking about" is self-evident in the thread.

Perhaps you could explain why you think Zimmerman's father's statement is illogical. That would be necessary for me to provide a counter argument.

With regard to what is "self-evident" in the thread, I take it the emphasis is on "self". Both news reports support Zimmerman's statement that TM punched him in the nose. If you want to argue TM sustained the injury to his knuckle(s) some other way, have at it.

 

[BenBurch]

Why is that funny? Nearly anytime you get a broken nose, you get two black eyes. Quite often, you fall down. In the opposite direction of the impact generally.

Having done said injury to people a few times, you are absolutely correct.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not sure how the timeline factors in, nor have we seen any official witness statements that report Martin was repeatedly punching Zimmerman. And if we did, those statements would be at odds with the physical evidence.

As far as the timeline, I don't find one punch, GZ went down, and the rest of the time was TM on top of him, yelling for help plausible.

Logic would dictate an injury of that nature never needed stitches in the first place.

That assumes people always make logical statements.

Butterfly bandages are for the express purpose of holding a wound closed. Why would a doctor apply that type of bandage to a wound that was already closed?

I am not sure why - so the patient feels better psychologically ? It still makes more sense to me than the doctor saying 'your fine, no worries' , documenting it, and GZ rushing home to put band-aids on.

What do you imagine handling the bodies of homicide victims has to do with detecting tiny abrasions?

I imagine kurtz was making a statement that working with homicide victims gave him the experience to know what to look for.

And you go with that. As I said, I don't really care. Maybe he is lying. It's not like he's a central figure to the case whose opinion means anything in determining the facts.

I don't care in terms of determining the facts, either. I do find it bothersome from the perspective of his role in the Martins Attorneys media campaign to paint a certain narrative about TM and the events.

However, you probably shouldn't stake out such a position after just lecturing me about refusing to entertain innocuous possibilities regarding the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story. It reeks of bias.

That's ok, I don't feel nearly as unbiased as I used to feel a few hundred posts ago.