Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[Checkmite]

So gee, ya think maybe it would have been a good idea to speed up earlier? And maybe in a direction that wasn't straight at the nearby ship? Like a crew that were not incompetent morons might have done?

And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.

I suspect part of the reason that both vessels were found equally liable is because right-of-way rules dictate that if the stand-on vessel in any situation sees that the give-way vessel is not taking proper steps under the rules to avoid collision, the stand-on vessel then has a duty to maneuver as necessary to prevent the collision. Right-of-way is not a protected right to sit there and allow yourself to be hit if you can in fact prevent it. Even if we are to allow that the Ady really did remain completely still (even though it definitely did not), it was a performance vessel with a powerful engine and there was no single point at which it was not capable of easily backing out of the oncoming vessel's way.

If the pilot "did not realize what was going on" until the moment of the collision, that's just more damning, as all vessels are required to keep an active watch at all times. In rough seas surrounded by multiple moving vessels in extreme close proximity is not the time to duck below for a sandwich.

 

[mikedenk]

My favorite part of that video is watching the Japanese whalers getting one last shot in with the stern water cannon as they pass (video at 0:33).

No quarter given.

An appropriate attitude towards pirates.

 

[applecorped]

As I recall there was speculation that there was a fortune in gold in the WTC that was smuggled out just before 9/11 too. There has been some speculation that speculation might not be evidence, because it's speculated that people might speculate whatever nonsense props up the story they have an emotional need to believe.

Goes both ways.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.

About how fast do you think the Ady Gill can accelerate in reverse, as opposed to forwards? Fast enough to evade an oncoming ship that wants to ram them?

 

[Seismosaurus]

And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.

I actually did wonder earlier on whether the Ady Gil might not have a reverse. That seemed really unlikely to me, but what with it being built as this highly specialised one trick pony, just maybe...

I googled around and couldn't find out. But even if that were so it would just make them even more to blame for going out with the intention of doing close in manoeuvring to harass other ships, using a boat that is only minimally capable of properly manoeuvring.

I suspect part of the reason that both vessels were found equally liable is because right-of-way rules dictate that if the stand-on vessel in any situation sees that the give-way vessel is not taking proper steps under the rules to avoid collision, the stand-on vessel then has a duty to maneuver as necessary to prevent the collision. Right-of-way is not a protected right to sit there and allow yourself to be hit if you can in fact prevent it. Even if we are to allow that the Ady really did remain completely still (even though it definitely did not), it was a performance vessel with a powerful engine and there was no single point at which it was not capable of easily backing out of the oncoming vessel's way.

If the pilot "did not realize what was going on" until the moment of the collision, that's just more damning, as all vessels are required to keep an active watch at all times. In rough seas surrounded by multiple moving vessels in extreme close proximity is not the time to duck below for a sandwich.

Exactly so. It's like a guy wandering around near a road who looks up to see a truck bearing down, about to pass him real close... so he jumps straight into the side of it as it reaches him. Then he bitches and moans because the driver hit him!

But ultimately, whatever the technicalities of that particular incident might be... if the whalers had everything exactly their way, none of these ships would ever go near one another. The whalers just want to go about their lawful business. It is the Clowns of the Sea that go out and deliberately try to get in as close as possible to other ships. It is they that push the confrontations. It is they that bear the responsibility for the entire situation.

I have absolutely no sympathy for them. I honestly don't see any problem with treating them any differently than Somali pirates or any other such scum.

 

[applecorped]

About how fast do you think the Ady Gill can accelerate in reverse, as opposed to forwards? Fast enough to evade an oncoming ship that wants to ram them?

Evidence?

 

[Furcifer]

It's pretty obvious the Japanese captain tried to ram the other ship. Proving it in court is another story. Arguing about it here is a lesson in futility. All I can suggest to anyone who thinks it was an accident is to watch the entire show, it might change your mind.

 

[NoahFence]

At least if they're starting to use fiberglass vessels they can't run into anyone again without sinking themselves (unless that's the plan).

You'll be pleased to know that it was struck by rogue wave and needed to limp away from the battle this winter.

 

[NoahFence]

Evidence?

I posted it earlier. In the video, the shonan is very far away. The Ady Gil stops moving, then all of a sudden the Shonan is right on top of them. If one ship stops moving, isn't it just obvious who was doing the ramming?

 

[Furcifer]

I
posted it earlier. In the video, the shonan is very far away. The Ady Gil stops moving, then all of a sudden the Shonan is right on top of them. If one ship stops moving, isn't it just obvious who was doing the ramming?

It is, but it's even more obvious we've been to the moon and there are people who question that. There's a slim chance the Japanese captain lost sight of them and veered the wrong way, but it's very slim. If it happened on day one of the hunt I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt, but this is something like the third week of them pestering the Japanese and the Japanese taking a run at them. You have to watch the entire season to get a feeling for the cat and mouse game that was going on.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I have absolutely no sympathy for them. I honestly don't see any problem with treating them any differently than Somali pirates or any other such scum.

In the end, it all comes down to whether you think whales count as moral entities.

If you don't, if your entire moral universe consists of people and what they want to do, your position makes perfect sense. The Sea Shepherd organisation is annoying humans, the only beings who matter, to protect whales, that don't matter at all. Thus the Sea Shepherd people deserve to be killed...

Oh hang on, that doesn't actually follow. You need some additional stupid ideas to make that argument work, including placing a very low value on human life. Oh well.

But anyway, they at least deserve something bad for annoying humans to save whales.

However if you think that whales actually matter, and that it actually matters whether they are killed inhumanely, then your position is clearly immoral.

You have a scientific problem on your hands here, which is that there's no good scientific reason to put humans on a pedestal as the only beings that matter. We're just another species of animal like chimpanzees, dolphins, gorillas and whales. Drawing an arbitrary line between humans and animals is no more intellectually defensible than drawing an arbitrary line between men and women, or white people and brown people. Beings should be judged by the qualities they have, not what arbitrary label you put on them.

 

[Checkmite]

I actually did wonder earlier on whether the Ady Gil might not have a reverse. That seemed really unlikely to me, but what with it being built as this highly specialised one trick pony, just maybe...

I googled around and couldn't find out. But even if that were so it would just make them even more to blame for going out with the intention of doing close in manoeuvring to harass other ships, using a boat that is only minimally capable of properly manoeuvring.

Think simpler, my friend.

Hull designers usually aren't engine designers; boatbuilders tend to use stock mechanical. The Ady Gil is no different in this regard...according to the Wikipedia entry, the boat uses twin 540hp engines fitted with ZF 305A gearboxes. These particular gearboxes can not only reverse, but are engineered to provide the same torque in reverse and ahead modes.

Now, the hull shape may easily prevent the boat from doing its alleged 32-knot top speed in reverse; but 1080 combined horses will be able to yank any 13-ton vessel back smartly, especially a multihull with such little wet surface. In fact, I'd wager the Ady Gil might've been able to outrun that fat whaler in reverse in a dead pursuit.

 

[tyr_13]

Kevin, you're building an argument on straw.

First, it isn't 'annoying' humans, it's putting humans in real danger of injury and death.

Second, one need not assume anything about if you think whales are moral entities or not to oppose the tactics of the SS. The comparison to abortion clinic bombers is apt in that regard.

You place a lot of emphasis on the ends the SS claims to want, protecting the whales. It's an 'ends justify the means' argument. However, even people who agree with the ends have been very critical of the means.

It does not 'come down to whether you think whales count as moral entities'. It comes down to whether you believe the ends justify the means and that the means are actually reaching the ends.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

tyr 13, you're such a reasonable guy. Whether it's politics, religion or firearms, we can always count on you to post legitimate, well-reasoned ideas why one side or the other might be preferable.

I'm not sure you belong here.

 

[Furcifer]

Think simpler, my friend.

Hull designers usually aren't engine designers; boatbuilders tend to use stock mechanical. The Ady Gil is no different in this regard...according to the Wikipedia entry, the boat uses twin 540hp engines fitted with ZF 305A gearboxes. These particular gearboxes can not only reverse, but are engineered to provide the same torque in reverse and ahead modes.

Now, the hull shape may easily prevent the boat from doing its alleged 32-knot top speed in reverse; but 1080 combined horses will be able to yank any 13-ton vessel back smartly, especially a multihull with such little wet surface. In fact, I'd wager the Ady Gil might've been able to outrun that fat whaler in reverse in a dead pursuit.

I'd have to take that wager. I've seen a lot of boats and I've never seen one go backwards anywhere near what they can go forwards. Not only are the hulls designed to go forwards but so are the props. I don't mean to be rude but your claim is pretty ridiculous IMO.
Plus those Japanese ships are extremely fast for their size. Someone more familiar with the Sea Shepard might chime in, but I believe it was a naval pursuit boat and it was getting lapped by the whaling boats. Sufficed to say despite their size they're no slouches in the water.

 

[RandFan]

I'm with Howie,

Good post tyr 13.

 

[tyr_13]

tyr 13, you're such a reasonable guy. Whether it's politics, religion or firearms, we can always count on you to post legitimate, well-reasoned ideas why one side or the other might be preferable.

I'm not sure you belong here.

I'm not really that reasonable. After all, I just realized that Kevin's points were in regards to treating the SS people the same as Somali pirates, not in opposing the tactics of them. My post has straw issues of it's own.

Now the Somali pirates do gain a bit of sympathy for being from, you know, Somalia.

It is worth considering that at some point to all of us, there are things where we would find violence and such tactics viable. I don't support whaling, but I also don't support the tactics of the SS people.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Kevin, you're building an argument on straw.

First, it isn't 'annoying' humans, it's putting humans in real danger of injury and death.

That's pretty questionable. No humans have actually died, but hundreds of whales have (and hundreds more perhaps been saved). So if whale-life counts at all in your moral calculations you can't discount the possibility that the risk to human life is justified by the difference made to whale life.

Depending on your point of view it might or might not matter that the whales are innocent parties, whereas someone who has signed on for a Japanese whaling ship is not.

Second, one need not assume anything about if you think whales are moral entities or not to oppose the tactics of the SS. The comparison to abortion clinic bombers is apt in that regard.

Only if you think actual, live whales with brains are equivalent to fetuses, and that the desire to not carry an unwanted baby to term is equivalent to the desire to eat some whale meat as opposed to the other available alternatives.

Otherwise it's not apt, it's utterly idiotic.

You place a lot of emphasis on the ends the SS claims to want, protecting the whales. It's an 'ends justify the means' argument.

Indeed. Ends do justify means, sometimes. Outside the realm of children's cartoons, anyway. You'll find that outside of Superman comics it's rarely possible to stop all the bad people without some risk or consequences.

However, even people who agree with the ends have been very critical of the means.

Appeal to popular stupidity.

It does not 'come down to whether you think whales count as moral entities'. It comes down to whether you believe the ends justify the means and that the means are actually reaching the ends.

They're clearly reaching the ends - whalers are going home having killed far fewer whales than they are allowed to kill. I think some people want to believe Sea Shepherd are ineffective because that narrative suits them, but the facts are simply not on those people's side. From a skeptical perspective it's clear that Sea Shepherd are effective. Some people are just butthurt about the fact that they are effective and are casting about for some excuse to say "lol stupid hippies they never achieve anything".

(I guess they missed the kill markings post, listing the whaling ships that Sea Shepherd have dealt with in the past. Of all the things to criticise Sea Shepherd for, ineffectiveness is clearly a very foolish and ignorant choice).

 

[Checkmite]

I'd have to take that wager. I've seen a lot of boats and I've never seen one go backwards anywhere near what they can go forwards. Not only are the hulls designed to go forwards but so are the props. I don't mean to be rude but your claim is pretty ridiculous IMO.

If the Gil could only reverse at 15% of its forward speed, that's almost 5 knots. More than enough speed to back out of the way.

1080hp is going to pull that boat back significantly faster than 5 knots, but anyway. You can contest that the Gil wouldn't be a screaming demon in reverse, but it was perfectly able to move out of the way; there's just no question.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

If the Gil could only reverse at 15% of its forward speed, that's almost 5 knots. More than enough speed to back out of the way.

1080hp is going to pull that boat back significantly faster than 5 knots, but anyway. You can contest that the Gil wouldn't be a screaming demon in reverse, but it was perfectly able to move out of the way; there's just no question.

Move out of the way, starting at what time? The time they actually started their engines, or some previous time?