Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

Status
Not open for further replies.
DOC said:
It could be both.
Click to expand...

Not likely, DOC. Remember our discussions about Josephus anad the Imperial famly?

DOC said:
You mean the one with this solution:...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem
Click to expand...

Wow, I'm so impressed.
DOC followed a link.

No, DOC, I mean the problem Josephus faced in the Revolts, which earned him the the name of 'traitor'.
I'm surprised you've forgotten our discussion about this.

Craig B said:
That proves it's phoney. Josephus couldn't possibly have believed Jesus to be God. We know he thought, or prudently stated, that the messianic prophecies were fulfilled in the person of the Emperor Vespasian.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

Brainache said:
Might have something to do with him working for the Romans as a translator and Official Spokesman for the Roman General Vespasion after declaring him to be the great leader the prophecies spoke of...
Click to expand...

You see, DOC?
It's not a mystery.

Anyway, about those prophecies?
 
DOC said:
Most scholars hypothesize it is a "partial" not a complete interpolation. And even if it was a partial interpolation that doesn't mean the part a copyist allegedly put in was false. He might have had important information that he felt more truthfully told the story.
Click to expand...
Repeating this lie doesn't help your case.

DOC said:
Then why is Josephus considered a traitor to the Jews and even took on the name of the Roman emperor Flavius for himself and his family. He also lived in Rome.
Click to expand...
He lived, died and was buried a loyal Pharisaic Jew.

DOC said:
As I've already showed, Josephus was basically a patsy to the Romans. His bosses and benefactors in Rome would probably not take kindly to excessive talk of about the great Messiah Jesus, especially when the Roman emperor was considered a god. Mention Christ for historical purposes to maintain some credibility but then move on to keep Rome happy; this would seem logical for Josephus to do rather than build up Jesus too much.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you should actually read what Feldman, whom you claim supports your case, actually says about Josephus and the TF? Rather than lying or regurgitating other peoples lies.
 
ddt said:
Actually, kmortis moved some inappropriate posts from the unfulfilled prophecies thread. ;)
Click to expand...


As was foretold on 20 April . . .


kmortis said:
OK, apparently I was too subtle before. Let me make this clear, even for those in the cheap seats.


The spread of Christianity, the foundation of other religions, the conversions of Jewish lawyers are all OFF TOPIC. Get back to the veracity of biblical prophesy.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
Click to expand...


A resurrection and a fulfilled propechy all in one!


Hallelujah!


If only there was evidence that the New Testament writers were aware of the prophecy we'd have a trifecta.
 
Akhenaten said:
As was foretold on 20 April . . .


​


A resurrection and a fulfilled propechy all in one!


Hallelujah!


If only there was evidence that the New Testament writers were aware of the prophecy we'd have a trifecta.
Click to expand...
:D
Are you actually saying that those posts shouldn't have been moved because they constituted fulfilled prophecy (from the well-known OT Book of Kmortis)? :p
 
Akhenaten said:
As was foretold on 20 April . . .


​


A resurrection and a fulfilled propechy all in one!


Hallelujah!


If only there was evidence that the New Testament writers were aware of the prophecy we'd have a trifecta.
Click to expand...

I do have friends named Matt and John. Does that count?
 
kmortis said:
I do have friends named Matt and John. Does that count?
Click to expand...


Indeed, for as it is written:


Isaiah 55:8-9

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the MOD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​
​


And if it's Isaiah then we all know it's just got to be true.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Most scholars hypothesize it is a "partial" not a complete interpolation. And even if it was a partial interpolation that doesn't mean the part a copyist allegedly put in was false. He might have had important information that he felt more truthfully told the story.
Click to expand...

Most scholars being who? Could you cite your sources for this claim?

DOC said:
Then why is Josephus considered a traitor to the Jews and even took on the name of the Roman emperor Flavius for himself and his family. He also lived in Rome.
Click to expand...

I suggest you find a copy of the complete works of Josephus. It should include Against Apion, which is a defense of Jewish religious belief and the historicity of the Jewish scriptures. Josephus states in the opening that he wrote it after he wrote The Antiquities of the Jews. Thus, late in life he still defended Jewish belief.

DOC said:
As I've already showedn, Josephus was basically a patsy to the Romans. His bosses and benefactors in Rome would probably not take kindly to excessive talk of about the great Messiah Jesus, especially when the Roman emperor was considered a god. Mention Christ for historical purposes to maintain some credibility but then move on to keep Rome happy; this would seem logical for Josephus to do rather than build up Jesus too much.
Click to expand...

He certainly would not have called Jesus the Christos (Gr. "anointed one," i.e. Messiah) if he was worried about offending them. Rather, he would have said of Jesus what the Talmud says, namely that he was a magician, who learned spells in Egypt, or something similar. Others have pointed out that Josephus also stated Vespasian fulfilled the messianic prophecies.

One thing i wonder about this thread is why it isn't in the religion and philosophy forum.

BTW: Happy Birthday, Marduk.
 
Elijah will appear before the end of of this thread does.
 
TimCallahan said:
Most scholars being who? Could you cite your sources for this claim?
Click to expand...

The claim being that most scholars support the idea that a limited form of the Testamentum Flavianum was actually written by Josephus. DOC, I'm still waiting for you to name names as to who these scholars might be.

TimCallahan said:
I suggest you find a copy of the complete works of Josephus. It should include Against Apion, which is a defense of Jewish religious belief and the historicity of the Jewish scriptures. Josephus states in the opening that he wrote it after he wrote The Antiquities of the Jews. Thus, late in life he still defended Jewish belief.
Click to expand...

So, DOC, have you managed to glance at the opening of Against Apion?

TimCallahan said:
He certainly would not have called Jesus the Christos (Gr. "anointed one," i.e. Messiah) if he was worried about offending them. Rather, he would have said of Jesus what the Talmud says, namely that he was a magician, who learned spells in Egypt, or something similar. Others have pointed out that Josephus also stated Vespasian fulfilled the messianic prophecies. . . . [minor snip] . . .
Click to expand...

And do ou have any response to the above?
 
zooterkin said:
Oh, I'm sure we can make lists of the likely candidates, but I'd like DOC to answer the question with his reasons, something which he seems unwilling to do despite having been asked more than once before.
Click to expand...

:bump2
 
TimCallahan said:
The claim being that most scholars support the idea that a limited form of the Testamentum Flavianum was actually written by Josephus. DOC, I'm still waiting for you to name names as to who these scholars might be.
Click to expand...

You would have to ask leading Josephus scholar Louis Feldman what their names are:

From the article: A Thorough Review of the Testimonium Flavianum
By Christopher Price

"A strong majority of scholars, however, have concluded that much of the TF is authentic to Josephus. In his book Josephus and Modern Scholarship, Professor Feldman reports that between 1937 to 1980, of 52 scholars reviewing the subject, 39 found portions of the TF to be authentic. Peter Kirby's own review of the literature, in an article discussing the TF in depth, shows that the trend in modern scholarship has moved even more dramatically towards partial authenticity: "In my own reading of thirteen books since 1980 that touch upon the passage, ten out of thirteen argue the Testimonium to be partly genuine, while the other three maintain it to be entirely spurious. Coincidentally, the same three books also argue that Jesus did not exist." (Kirby, Testamonium Flavianum, 2001). Though my own studies have revealed a similar trend (about 15 to 1 for partial authenticity, with the exception being a Jesus Mythologist), I do not believe that it is a coincidence that it is Jesus Mythologists who are carrying the water against the partial authenticity theory. Even the partial validity of this one passage is enough to sink their entire argument.

http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm
 
DOC said:
You would have to ask leading Josephus scholar Louis Feldman what their names are:

From the article: A Thorough Review of the Testimonium Flavianum
By Christopher Price
Click to expand...
So you don't have those names? :rolleyes:

More importantly, note that in all those counts mentioned by Price, the vote is split between "partial authenticity" and "no authenticity". The partial authenticity claims always mean that Josephus' original text did mention Jesus, bud didn't acknowledge he was the Christ. So that still doesn't help you with the topic of this thread, viz. your claim that the NT is true.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom