Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

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Spouting his usual repetitive nonsense in another thread.


:)

Yeah, I know. That's where he made this post:


I'll get to these as time permits; I've already addressed the some will not taste death verse before in another thread.

They didn't taste death before they saw the beginning of the Kingdom with the Resurrection of Christ.


And I asked him for a link to back up his claim.

And since I knew he'd have to come to this thread searching for such a link, I thought a little note to let him know I was still a step ahead might be in order.

I has teh wicked.
 
This story even makes the bible story make less sense and supports Tim's point.
It helps support the point that it is completely insane that the jews would first welcome jesus by a parade, and then a week later call for his head..

It's religious leaders that wanted Jesus dead, and probably not the majority of people. It's like most US citizens want us out of Afganistan but most of the people in power want us there.
 
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The religious leaders wanted Jesus dead and probably not the majority of people.

Why would the religious leaders want the majority of the people dead? Then they would have few people left of whom to be leaders.
 
. . . (snip) . . . But you left out item 3, the next paragraph:

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. . . . snip) . . .

I see know problem with Pilate not finding any guilt with Jesus. Item 2 above portrays the Romans and Jews as enemies. There is a saying that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". And Jesus was definitely an enemy of many of Jewish religious leaders of the day.

First, let's deal with the Testamentum Flavianum or as it is more simply known, the "Testamonial," item 3 quoted above. There are a host of reasons most scholars, whatever their theological bent, consider this passage to be intrusive material inserted by a later scribe. First of all, consider the hilited areas. Supposedly, Josephus, who remained a Jew and a Pharisee to the end of his life, is here affirming that Jesus was the Christos, "anointed one" or in Hebrew, the Meshiach or in Aramaic, the Meshihah. which we anglicize as "Messiah." He is further affirming the truth of the resurrection. Yet, there's no further mention of Jesus in either the Antiquities or in Wars of the Jews except for a reference to the execution of James, who is referred to as the brother of Jesus, "who was called the Christ," (this last phrase, by the way, is disputed). It's as if Josephus said, "About this time, the Messiah showed up, and now, back to our story," and didn't bother further with Jesus. All this, of course, is highly unlikely. Some have considered that only the material I hilited above was added by a later scribe. If that material and anything referring to supernatural happenings is removed, we would have this:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Could this have been written by Josephus and only doctored by later scribes? The answer to that question is, "No." Consider the end of item 2, in which Pilate had used brutal tactics to disperse an angry mob. If we delete the Testimonial entirely and go from item 2 to item 4, we have this (items 2 and 4 connected by a boldface elipsis):

. . . and since the people were unarmed and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded; and thus an end was put to this sedition. . . . About this same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder; . . .

As you can see, the text flows smoothly with the Testimonial cut out. Put the Testimonial back in, and it's not clear to what the opening of item 4, "About this same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder," refers.

As to Pilate's response, you seem to have missed the point I was making, that Pilate, a man used to taking brutal measures when crossed by a mob, is supposed to have released to such a mob Barabbas, a man guilty of insurrection, and, out of fear of that same mob to have condemned Jesus to death.
 
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First, let's deal with the Testamentum Flavianum or as it is more simply known, the "Testamonial," item 3 quoted above. There are a host of reasons most scholars, whatever their theological bent, consider this passage to be intrusive material inserted by a later scribe.
Most scholars hypothesize it is a "partial" not a complete interpolation. And even if it was a partial interpolation that doesn't mean the part a copyist allegedly put in was false. He might have had important information that he felt more truthfully told the story.

First of all, consider the hilited areas. Supposedly, Josephus, who remained a Jew and a Pharisee to the end of his life...

Then why is Josephus considered a traitor to the Jews and even took on the name of the Roman emperor Flavius for himself and his family. He also lived in Rome.

is here affirming that Jesus was the Christos, "anointed one" or in Hebrew, the Meshiach or in Aramaic, the Meshihah. which we anglicize as "Messiah." He is further affirming the truth of the resurrection. Yet, there's no further mention of Jesus in either the Antiquities or in Wars of the Jews except for a reference to the execution of James, who is referred to as the brother of Jesus, "who was called the Christ," (this last phrase, by the way, is disputed). It's as if Josephus said, "About this time, the Messiah showed up, and now, back to our story," and didn't bother further with Jesus...

As I've already showed, Josephus was basically a patsy to the Romans. His bosses and benefactors in Rome would probably not take kindly to excessive talk of about the great Messiah Jesus, especially when the Roman emperor was considered a god. Mention Christ for historical purposes to maintain some credibility but then move on to keep Rome happy; this would seem logical for Josephus to do rather than build up Jesus too much.
 
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As I've already showed, Josephus was basically a patsy to the Romans. His bosses and benefactors in Rome would probably not take kindly to excessive talk of about the great Messiah Jesus, especially when the Roman emperor was considered a god. Mention Christ for historical purposes to maintain some credibility but then move on to keep Rome happy; .

faulty logic Doc
He was [the] Christ. he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him

this is not a mention of a man called jesus for historical purposes, its a testament to a divinity
:rolleyes:
 
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The TF is spurious. No early commentator on Josephus' work mentions it. Origen tells us that Josephus did not acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, but then doesn't say that he makes other flattering remarks about him. The first person to allude to the passage is Eusebius, writing in the days of Constantine. Eusebius is not always a trustworthy writer; some commentators have even argued that he intentionally resorted to falsehoods when the interests of religion required it.

For a discussion of all this, see http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/supp16.htm .
 
I see DOC is in fine form- almost as though he's received coaching!


It's religious leaders that wanted Jesus dead, and probably not the majority of people. ...

Probably? That mob that wanted Barabbas released existed, according to the NT.

...As to Pilate's response, you seem to have missed the point I was making, that Pilate, a man used to taking brutal measures when crossed by a mob, is supposed to have released to such a mob Barabbas, a man guilty of insurrection, and, out of fear of that same mob to have condemned Jesus to death.

Hmm.
DOC, any thoughts on that?


...Then why is Josephus considered a traitor to the Jews and even took on the name of the Roman emperor Flavius for himself and his family. He also lived in Rome. ...As I've already showed, Josephus was basically a patsy to the Romans. His bosses and benefactors in Rome would probably not take kindly to excessive talk of about the great Messiah Jesus, especially when the Roman emperor was considered a god. Mention Christ for historical purposes to maintain some credibility but then move on to keep Rome happy; this would seem logical for Josephus to do rather than build up Jesus too much.

It's almost as though DOC's forgotten what I posted and sourced on the subject of Josephus and his relation to the Imperial Family.
.
Can it be this DOC has forgotten the Josephus Problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem


The TF is spurious. No early commentator on Josephus' work mentions it. Origen tells us that Josephus did not acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, but then doesn't say that he makes other flattering remarks about him. The first person to allude to the passage is Eusebius, writing in the days of Constantine. Eusebius is not always a trustworthy writer; some commentators have even argued that he intentionally resorted to falsehoods when the interests of religion required it.

For a discussion of all this, see http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/supp16.htm .

Thanks for the link, Craig B.
 
Can it be this DOC has forgotten the Josephus Problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem.

You mean the one with this solution:

Solution

In the following, n denotes the number of people in the initial circle, and k denotes the count for each step, that is, k-1 people are skipped and the k-th is executed. The people in the circle are numbered from 1 to n.
k=2
We explicitly solve the problem when every 2nd person will be killed, i.e. k=2. (For the more general case k\neq 2, we outline a solution below.) We express the solution recursively. Let f(n) denote the position of the survivor when there are initially n people (and k=2). The first time around the circle, all of the even-numbered people die. The second time around the circle, the new 2nd person dies, then the new 4th person, etc.; it's as though there were no first time around the circle. If the initial number of people was even, then the person in position x during the second time around the circle was originally in position 2x - 1 (for every choice of x). Let n=2j. The person at f(j) who will now survive was originally in position 2f(j) - 1. This gives us the recurrence
f(2j)=2f(j)-1\;...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem
 
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You mean the one with this solution:

Solution

In the following, n denotes the number of people in the initial circle, and k denotes the count for each step, that is, k-1 people are skipped and the k-th is executed. The people in the circle are numbered from 1 to n.
k=2
We explicitly solve the problem when every 2nd person will be killed, i.e. k=2. (For the more general case k\neq 2, we outline a solution below.) We express the solution recursively. Let f(n) denote the position of the survivor when there are initially n people (and k=2). The first time around the circle, all of the even-numbered people die. The second time around the circle, the new 2nd person dies, then the new 4th person, etc.; it's as though there were no first time around the circle. If the initial number of people was even, then the person in position x during the second time around the circle was originally in position 2x - 1 (for every choice of x). Let n=2j. The person at f(j) who will now survive was originally in position 2f(j) - 1. This gives us the recurrence
f(2j)=2f(j)-1\;...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem

That's the one. Now, who was the first person to solve the problem?
 
It could be both.
That proves it's phoney. Josephus couldn't possibly have believed Jesus to be God. We know he thought, or prudently stated, that the messianic prophecies were fulfilled in the person of the Emperor Vespasian.
 
...
Then why is Josephus considered a traitor to the Jews and even took on the name of the Roman emperor Flavius for himself and his family. He also lived in Rome.
...

Might have something to do with him working for the Romans as a translator and Official Spokesman for the Roman General Vespasion after declaring him to be the great leader the prophecies spoke of...
 
Solution

In the following, n denotes the number of people in the initial circle, and k denotes the count for each step, that is, k-1 people are skipped and the k-th is executed. The people in the circle are numbered from 1 to n.
k=2
We explicitly solve the problem when every 2nd person will be killed, i.e. k=2. (For the more general case k\neq 2, we outline a solution below.) We express the solution recursively. Let f(n) denote the position of the survivor when there are initially n people (and k=2). The first time around the circle, all of the even-numbered people die. The second time around the circle, the new 2nd person dies, then the new 4th person, etc.; it's as though there were no first time around the circle. If the initial number of people was even, then the person in position x during the second time around the circle was originally in position 2x - 1 (for every choice of x). Let n=2j. The person at f(j) who will now survive was originally in position 2f(j) - 1. This gives us the recurrence
f(2j)=2f(j)-1\;...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem

OK, now you're just kidding, right?

That's just silly.
 
And now you're flailing about wildly in a transparent attempt to distract from the fact that the answer that was given shows that you are, as always, completely at a loss when it comes to actual history.

Now now now, let's be fair. DOC isn't that much better at fictional history either.
 
Might have something to do with him working for the Romans as a translator and Official Spokesman for the Roman General Vespasion after declaring him to be the great leader the prophecies spoke of...

And perhaps because he'd been a Jewish commander who surrendered to the Romans, instead of killing himself, therefore becoming a traitor!
 
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