General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[A'isha]

One more example of hack writer...

I taught you a new favorite term, I see.

 

[Corsair 115]

Is it wrong of me to long for Saggy's touting of a vast global Jewish conspiracy which control the media, academia, and everything else? Because at least he had the willingness to actually make that (outrageously nonsensical) proposition flat-out. Unlike the other deniers resident in this thread, who are effectively suggesting the same thing but who lack the intestinal fortitude to come right out and say it in no uncertain terms.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Was I being informed that the Germans couldn't fix an engine?

A captured Russian engine requires Russian spare parts. Are you suggesting the camp commodant at Treblinka should have tied a little note to your little SS uniform saying "Engine parts wanted" and pushed you off in the direction of the Russian front to ask for help from a front line Red Army mechanic for a quick repair?

 

[Nick Terry]

So...according to Bay, a human being has sufficient buoyancy to float half-out of the water? Because his figures give an average density of .46 gram/cm^3 -- which is less than ONE HALF the density of water.

Now, I realize irregular objects have a packing density. Ask Roger Penrose about it some time! But a wastage of well over 50% is just ridiculous.

Garbage dumps operate with packing densities of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre, according to a quick google search. Snakey's calculations (which have clearly gone seriously wrong in between all the pseudoscientific equations) would work out at less than half a ton/cubic metre.

The Belzec victims would have weighed in under 15,000 tons at the specified average weight (34kg), which set against 21,000 cubic metres alongside the effects of decomposition and the staggered burials, really does not seem terribly problematic.

Snakey naturally totally ignores Roberto Muehlenkamp's discussion of the effects of decomposition, precisely the factor which would make the mass graves more like garbage dumps than actual graves. Indeed Roberto used a model based on an average of 14.8 bodies/cubic metre to show that the graves could have accomodated a significantly higher number of bodies (513,000). Snakey is claiming a density of 13.9 bodies/cubic metre, so he's still screwed, even after all the pseudoscientific pretension.

I will let Roberto know he has a new admirer with a sick crush on him, though.

 

[SnakeTongue]

So...according to Bay, a human being has sufficient buoyancy to float half-out of the water? Because his figures give an average density of .46 gram/cm^3 -- which is less than ONE HALF the density of water.

Now, I realize irregular objects have a packing density. Ask Roger Penrose about it some time! But a wastage of well over 50% is just ridiculous.

Which figures give that density?

 

[Dcdrac]

Which crimes are you referring?

Genocide, enslaving of mass popualtions, murder of innocents.....

 

[Nick Terry]

Amazing book you cited!

Let's read the introdction:

Introduction: “This World Is Not This World” ​

Wow!

Philosophical idiocy in short words.

One more example of hack writer...

Yet I make no claim to a comprehensive historical study of all Nazi doctors, or of the medical profession in general during the Third Reich. I often wished I had had access to such a study, as it would have greatly lessened the extensive digging into archives and trial documents in various parts of the world that my assistants and I had to undertake. (...) A compensation perhaps for my very limited knowledge of languages involved (German, Hebrew, Yiddish, Polish, and French) was the breadth of this nourishing network that took shape.

(...)

I gained an important perspective on Auschwitz from an Israeli dentist who had spent three years in that camp. (...) He looked about the comfortable room in his house with its beautiful view of Haifa, sighed deeply, and said, “This world is not this world.” What I think he meant was that, after Auschwitz, the ordinary rhythms and appearances of life, however innocuous or pleasant, were far from the truth of human existence. (...)​

So... instead of doing what everyone else would do, namely look up the relevant chapter on medical experiments at Auschwitz and start digesting the information conveyed there on the relevant point, you start with the introduction and find some remarks which sound a bit wanky to you, which actually aren't very wanky at all, and then dismiss the source.

Uh-huh. Suuuure that's really going to work.

In case you didn't realise, the reason Lifton was recommended was because his book is online for free. There are dozens of other books on the same subject (Nazi medical experiments, and medical experiments at Auschwitz) which cover the same ground, use some of the same sources, while introducing other sources Lifton didn't use or couldn't use, and which together amount to the literature on that subject.

Still, page 282 of the book and the subsequent page reference three eyewitness accounts describing Schumann's methods of getting sperm samples. The last witness is sourced to the Dering vs Uris libel trial, citing Hill and Williams, Auschwitz in England, pp. 18-19, which resulted in a pretty exhaustive record of Schumann's experiments because Wladyslaw Dering assisted in them.

Lifton also cites from a separate study by Stanislaw Klodzinski which originally appeared in Przeglad Lekarskii, a Polish medical journal which ran articles in one issue a year on themes relating to medicine at Auschwitz through the 60s and 70s.

It has probably escaped your attention in all of your voluminous reading on all kinds of subjects under the sun (snigger) that most authors will stop belabouring a point after finding one other matching source. There is after all little reason to regard shoving objects up prisoners' rectums in order to induce involuntary ejaculation as an issue that requires tracking down every single source on it to compile the definitive article on involuntary ejaculation at Auschwitz.

Personally I think a lot of Lifton's arguments are bunk, and his other books are not great. He is a psychologist, not a historian. But he has given an accurate rendition of Schumann's experiments, one that can be compared and contrasted with the picture emerging from 'Auschwitz in England' or Klee or Klodzinski or Lang or Strzelecka or the memoirists that have written about them.

And the only way you can work out whether Lifton's rendition is accurate is by reading it for comprehension and following the references, which I just did in a very quick check, identifying the sources used.

That's how sane people engage in fact-checking. Lifton could have been a screaming Marxist or crazed hippie or even an unreconstructed Nazi but none of that matters when the issue is fact-checking.

 

[000063]

You seem to ignore all the buts/exceptions Nick Terry and countless others use
to connect dot after dot after dot.

Subject change and ad hominem. Right on schedule. It's not even right. Terry and others on my side use primary sources all the time. You're the one who's constantly spouting off about this mythical Team Holocaust.

Still not talking about the Soviet POWs, I see.

They could hold a gun to their head.
...

That would be less than effective for a number of reasons, most obviously mortal terror. Prostate stimulation generally works regardless of the victim's mood. Or willingness. Heck, you don't even have to be awake.

 

[nomuse]

Garbage dumps operate with packing densities of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre, according to a quick google search. Snakey's calculations (which have clearly gone seriously wrong in between all the pseudoscientific equations) would work out at less than half a ton/cubic metre.

The Belzec victims would have weighed in under 15,000 tons at the specified average weight (34kg), which set against 21,000 cubic metres alongside the effects of decomposition and the staggered burials, really does not seem terribly problematic.

Snakey naturally totally ignores Roberto Muehlenkamp's discussion of the effects of decomposition, precisely the factor which would make the mass graves more like garbage dumps than actual graves. Indeed Roberto used a model based on an average of 14.8 bodies/cubic metre to show that the graves could have accomodated a significantly higher number of bodies (513,000). Snakey is claiming a density of 13.9 bodies/cubic metre, so he's still screwed, even after all the pseudoscientific pretension.

I will let Roberto know he has a new admirer with a sick crush on him, though.

Not to get too deep in what seems like a sick exercise in misapplied physics, but my own first-approximation assumption was that the sheer mass of the pile and the mechanical efforts used to achieve it would result in significant mechanical deformation of the tissues.

Or, to drop the high-flown talk, less like a crowded subway and more like putting raw hamburger into a can.

(The best I can find on the "packed subway" is large crowd density, which is about .23 M^2 per person, so assuming 1.6 meters for height would work out to rectangular array holding 2.7 persons per cubic meter. And that is simply a standing crowd -- well below the values at which people in standing crowds get crushed to death).

 

[Clayton Moore]

A captured Russian engine requires Russian spare parts. Are you suggesting the camp commodant at Treblinka should have tied a little note to your little SS uniform saying "Engine parts wanted" and pushed you off in the direction of the Russian front to ask for help from a front line Red Army mechanic for a quick repair?

Wow. A captured Russian truck was taken to Treblinka and became the key component to the camp gas chambers. A German vehicle wouldn't suffice.
A ritual non-expendable vehicle event.

 

[thedopefishlives]

Wow. A captured Russian truck was taken to Treblinka and became the key component to the camp gas chambers. A German vehicle wouldn't suffice.A ritual non-expendable vehicle event.

No one ever said that. What we do know from the sources is that it is what they used. I know you enjoy tilting at straw men, but even you can do better than that.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Subject change and ad hominem. Right on schedule. It's not even right. Terry and others on my side use primary sources all the time. You're the one who's constantly spouting off about this mythical Team Holocaust.

Still not talking about the Soviet POWs, I see.

That would be less than effective for a number of reasons, most obviously mortal terror. Prostate stimulation generally works regardless of the victim's mood. Or willingness. Heck, you don't even have to be awake.

Wow. You're actually running with the ritual old men's sperm collection to enable a ritual sterilization research program. Is there a time frame for when the sperm collection was taking place?

 

[TSR]

Is there ever going to be a time when you do not argue from personal ignorance?

 

[Dogzilla]

Is it wrong of me to long for Saggy's touting of a vast global Jewish conspiracy which control the media, academia, and everything else? Because at least he had the willingness to actually make that (outrageously nonsensical) proposition flat-out. Unlike the other deniers resident in this thread, who are effectively suggesting the same thing but who lack the intestinal fortitude to come right out and say it in no uncertain terms.

I don't think so. I understand completely why you would miss him. It's easier to refute a vast global Jewish conspiracy than it is to properly address holocaust denial. I don't agree with Saggy's opinion of Jews and I believe his approach is more harmful than good. But I congratulate him for forcing you guys to nominate Pesye Schloss as the one credible Jewish eyewitness to the holocaust. (But, to be fair, it was you guys who nominated her).

 

[Dogzilla]

Of course, brilliant idea! Because nothing helps an erection and a toss off quite like having a loaded gun pointed at one's head

Prisoners who have watched their entire village shot before their very eyes or witnessed their thirty seven brothers, forty two sisters, eighteen of their grandparents and all twenty five of their parents marched off to the gas chamber, who were starved and denied medical treatment in the ghetto for years and who are regularly beaten and psychologically tortured have become the most productive menial workers the world has ever seen merely by having a gun pointed at their head. Do you have anything besides your own incredulity as evidence that this wouldn't work for sexual activity as well?

 

[Dogzilla]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14917160 (diamond, recovered the natural way)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/wilfredo-gonzalez-chicago_n_922412.html (diamond ring)
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/USB-Stick-Swallow-Evidence-Surgery,news-5997.html (flash drive, got stuck apparently)

I still don't believe Zisblatt, though.

Swallowing coins is done so frequently by children that there are about a zillion web pages on it. People have pointed out that gold wouldn't react in the same way as ordinary coins.

Did these people wash off their valuables in the mud and then swallow them again and again and again? Try a proper comparison next time.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You do understand that there is an agenda being fulfilled by propagating the Holocaust nonsense?

 

[FluffyPersian]

Prisoners who have watched their entire village shot before their very eyes or witnessed their thirty seven brothers, forty two sisters, eighteen of their grandparents and all twenty five of their parents marched off to the gas chamber, who were starved and denied medical treatment in the ghetto for years and who are regularly beaten and psychologically tortured have become the most productive menial workers the world has ever seen

Do you have any, you know, data showing that the concentration camp workers were the "most productive the world has ever seen?" Maybe you can show us a comparison units produced per diem by concentration camp workers compared to laborers elsewhere during different periods?

Also, it's unclear what the efficiency of the slave laborers has to do with the likelihood that camp doctors indeed stimulated the prostate to produce involuntary ejaculation.

 

[Corsair 115]

I don't think so. I understand completely why you would miss him. It's easier to refute a vast global Jewish conspiracy than it is to properly address holocaust denial.

Let's boil it down to the essence. There is a vast body of historical evidence on the Holocaust that has been gathered by historical researchers and scholars over the decades and published in a great many books—not the least of which is from Germany itself, a small list of which Nick conveniently provided earlier.

So, given that vast body of published evidence, to claim the Holocaust didn't happen of necessity means saying that vast body of evidence—not the least of which is from Germany itself—is to be disregarded. In order to do that, there are really only two possibilities: (1) all those historical researchers and scholars are mistaken, or (2) all those historical researchers and scholars are lying.

The first strains credulity well beyond the breaking point. The second inevitably requires some form of conspiracy (of which Saggy has posted about previously). Postulating a global conspiracy is likewise straining credulity well beyond the breaking point. Since both of the only two possibilities which allow the vast body of historical evidence to be disregarded are equally nonsensical propositions, one is left with no rational or reasonable basis upon which to disregard the historical evidence and assert the Holocaust didn't happen.

And yet the assertion continues to be made.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

It is indeed a diversion, but I find it deeply bemusing that Dogzilla thinks that incredulity about a well documented aspect of Nazi crimes, namely medical experiments, is going to get him very far.

When BSO returns, he may well elaborate further on some of the other experiments connected to Auschwitz. I'm sure he knows which one in particular I'm thinking of, and it will not please Dogzilla or Tonto very much at all.

Particularly since sterilization is mentioned specifically in several documents we've recently been bringing to SnakeTongue's attention in the context of his questions regarding methods used to identify Jews.

I'd say the connection you had in mind was through Ahnenerbe. With the old forum gone and the first part of this thread locked, I'd say it is about time Hans Joachim Lang gets an other mention here. How many dots to connect the 25 Point NSDAP program to Jacob Polak, Levie Khan and their respective families? Degrees of separation.