• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
Two and a half years? They're performing sterilization experiments for two and a half years on people they want to exterminate?

What better place to find test subjects? Jews were being deported constantly to Auschwitz, some were being selected for labour, some were selected for medical experiments, the SS medical hierarchy exploited the opportunity.

You can find another witness who says the same thing? When you have as many survivors as we do you're bound to find at least one person who corroborate just about anything.

Or maybe, just maybe, when two or more people testify to the same thing, they are telling the truth. That's generally how it goes down in a court of law, I think you'll find, as well as in newspaper journalism.

This isn't, however you try to slice it, an extraordinary claim. No matter how hard you try, the claim made by Mr K simply isn't implausible given everything we know about doctors in mid-20th century Europe, the development of medical science and experimentation in this era, and everything we know about the sub-set of Nazi doctors carrying out human experiments, not to mention human physiology, as well as what would be required if one was conducting experiments to reduce human fertility, according to the commonly accepted principles of science prevailing then and now.

Wtf do you think the SS were going to do in order to get quite clearly necessary sperm samples for control purposes in sterilisation experiments, send the prisoner into a cubicle with a test tube and a Marlene Dietrich pin-up, and ask nicely?

I can find other survivors who swallowed their valuables and dug them out of their feces. Does that mean Irene is telling the truth?

Then please present accurate references to other such survivor testimonies.
 
this is a complete diversion from the fact the crime occured, standard denier tricks

Attack one or two accounts in a vain effort to discredit the whole series of accounts and documentation

It is indeed a diversion, but I find it deeply bemusing that Dogzilla thinks that incredulity about a well documented aspect of Nazi crimes, namely medical experiments, is going to get him very far.

When BSO returns, he may well elaborate further on some of the other experiments connected to Auschwitz. I'm sure he knows which one in particular I'm thinking of, and it will not please Dogzilla or Tonto very much at all.
 
You can find another witness who says the same thing? When you have as many survivors as we do you're bound to find at least one person who corroborate just about anything. I can find other survivors who swallowed their valuables and dug them out of their feces. Does that mean Irene is telling the truth?

Given the rather inventive ways modern prisoners use to hide and smuggle valuables, weapons, drugs, etc in modern institutions, I would put that squarely in the realm of the possible.

Why does it seem improbable to you?
 
...I'm really rather unclear as to why you find the account incredible, given everything else Nazi doctors at Auschwitz are known to have done. Schumann's main emphasis was on using x-rays to sterilise his test subjects. Dr Carl Clauberg conducted sterilisation experiments where uteruses were burned out with acid. The chief doctor at Auschwitz, Eduard Wirths, photographed women's cervices and then amputated them so he could collaborate with the inventor of colposcopy. Wirths' brother Helmut showed up at the camp and took part in all the 'fun' they were having too. For more on a lot of this, see Robert Jay Lifton's book Nazi Doctors which is online in full. ...
Once again, I am thankful of the fact that I can prevent myself from involuntarily forming mental images.

Two and a half years? They're performing sterilization experiments for two and a half years on people they want to exterminate?

You can find another witness who says the same thing? When you have as many survivors as we do you're bound to find at least one person who corroborate just about anything. I can find other survivors who swallowed their valuables and dug them out of their feces. Does that mean Irene is telling the truth?
Nothing more than incredulity. Got it.

You did notice that the WP articles Doc Terry linked have at least a half-dozen sources each, right?
 
Two and a half years? They're performing sterilization experiments for two and a half years on people they want to exterminate?

You can find another witness who says the same thing? When you have as many survivors as we do you're bound to find at least one person who corroborate just about anything. I can find other survivors who swallowed their valuables and dug them out of their feces. Does that mean Irene is telling the truth?

The stupidest aspect of the Holocaust fabrication is the roundabout way it is verified, in order to connect the dots, that the Germans went about performing the alleged EVENTUAL exterminations. I pointed this out in the recent "BUT" fiasco of facts by Team Holocaust.

Recently I pointed out the idiocy of broken down gas chambers. The response:

You do know that they used carbon monoxide at Treblinka don't you. Any guess as to how they made it?

Was I being informed that the Germans couldn't fix an engine?
 
You have pointed out nothing at all other than an ability to trawl the internet and go in circles chasing the tail of your own links to discredited rightist historians and whackos on youtube.
 
The stupidest aspect of the Holocaust fabrication is the roundabout way it is verified, in order to connect the dots, that the Germans went about performing the alleged EVENTUAL exterminations. I pointed this out in the recent "BUT" fiasco of facts by Team Holocaust.

Recently I pointed out the idiocy of broken down gas chambers. The response:



Was I being informed that the Germans couldn't fix an engine?

Clay, do you really want someone to go back and list all the things you've got wrong or never answered? For example, why you don't complain about the Soviets not managing some sort of en-masse resistance? Or the fundamental difference between the Holocaust and any other modern genocide? I've asked you several times, and you've never even acknowledged the question.

You never answered that question. Odds are that it would've been relevant to the question you asked. Specifically, if the carbon monoxide is produced by cars, then the cars might break down. Idling for long periods might do that, or normal wear and tear. If the cause of the breakdown is some obscure or unavailable part, then it might take a while. Or if the mechanics are unavailable, or any one of a number of reasons. You are familiar with the habits of mechanics, right?

And, of course, all this is nitpicking, trying to find a single crack in the story by which you can dismiss all of it. I mean, you were presented with a story of a chaotic, poorly run camp, and you seem surprised that they couldn't keep their cars going properly.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs16-08.html
Breakdowns and interruptions occurred in the operation of the gas chambers. During the initial phase the personnel did not know how long it would take to asphyxiate the victims. On occasion the doors were opened too early and the victims were still alive, so that the doors had to be closed again. The engines which produced the gas occasionally failed. If such mishaps occurred when the victims were already inside the gas chambers, they were left standing there until the engines had been repaired. Some 268,000 Jews met their deaths in the first extermination wave in Treblinka, which lasted five weeks -- from July 23 to August 28.

The gas chambers with their technical breakdowns were unable to cope with such enormous numbers....
So, that's over a quarter-million people dead in a few weeks. Any guess on how much running the engines would have to do?
 
The stupidest aspect of the Holocaust fabrication is the roundabout way it is verified, in order to connect the dots, that the Germans went about performing the alleged EVENTUAL exterminations. I pointed this out in the recent "BUT" fiasco of facts by Team Holocaust.


Roundabout way of verification:

Physical evidence;
Testimonial evidence of victims;
Testimonial evidence of perpetrators;
Documentary evidence.

That's not "roundabout" that is direct evidence.
 
You have pointed out nothing at all other than an ability to trawl the internet and go in circles chasing the tail of your own links to discredited rightist historians and whackos on youtube.
ClaytonMoore just voluntarily made a direct connection between sterilization and temporary exemptions.

Given such acknowledgement it is a bit odd that he recently didn't want to answer Nick Terry's question whether or not all German Jews were sent to Theresienstadt? Still, let us be thankful.

To be continued.
 
A fascinating aspect of Holocaust denial is its links to 9/11 Truth. There often indistinguishable and I suppose that is fine as far as it goes.

But an equally bizarre association is the links between Holocaust denial and UFOology and the belief in Extra terrestrials.

Exponents of this that come to mind are Ernst Zundel and Jeff Resne amongst the more well known for this.Another one is David Icke.

Zundel was famous or infamous in an attempt to lead an expedition to the Antarctic to locate Nazi UFO bases
(He is convinced that the Nazis had all the Techno know how to build UFOs).

Would our Holohoaxers like to advance an explanation for this weirdness.? It may indeed by a shared article of faith essential to understanding their belief system.?

There's no connection between holocaust denial and Nazi UFOs. holocaust denial isn't even on the radar for most people but Nazi UFOs has the "As seen on TV" seal of approval.
 
Roundabout way of verification:

Physical evidence;
Testimonial evidence of victims;
Testimonial evidence of perpetrators;
Documentary evidence.

That's not "roundabout" that is direct evidence.

You seem to ignore all the buts/exceptions Nick Terry and countless others use
to connect dot after dot after dot.
 
References:

Holocaust Controversies
Charles D Provan, Kurt Gerstein And The Capacity Of The Gas Chamber At Belzec
Charles A Bay, Appendix D - Ash Disposal and Burial Pits (Continued)
HISTORY IN IMAGES - Poland Under German Occupation And Warsaw Ghetto
The ratio's in the drawing - Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man
Body Mass Index - The BMI formula


Hack(ed) writing:
Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka - Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard

Holocaust Controversies

By Jonathan Harrison, Roberto Muehlenkamp, Jason Myers, Sergey Romanov, Nicholas Terry

Chapter 7

Mass Graves

This chapter starts with a presentation of what is known about the mass graves at these four camps, mainly from forensic and archaeological investigations, (...) [p. 382] A detailed archaeological investigation, conducted in 1997-1999 by archaeologist Prof. Andrzej Kola of Nicolaus Copernicus University in Torun, Poland, led to the discovery, approximate measurement, and establishment of the contents of 33 mass graves in the Belzec area. (...)

archaeologicalinvestiga.jpg


Capacity of the Graves

(...) Jews of Poland were about three inches shorter than the average German. 1.68 meters equal 66 inches, so if the Jews of Poland were about three inches smaller than the average German, according to Provan's source Dr. von Verschuer, their average height was 63 inches or 1.60 meters. (...) According to the Body Measurement Index table [104], a person with a height of 1.60 meters is underweight at 38 to 48 kg. Assuming that the average weight of adult Jews in Polish ghettos at the time was in between the upper and the lower value of what the BMI table considers underweight, it would be (38+48) ÷ 2 = 43 kg. (...) [p. 417]

polishghettojews.jpg


(...) This relation would mean a weight of 43 ÷ 2.76 = 15.6 kg for ill-fed or starving children in Polish ghettos. Rounding up the latter value, a group of two adults and one child 14 years and younger from a Jewish ghetto in Poland would thus weigh (43+43+16)/3 = 34 kg on average, (...)

underweight.jpg


(...) Alex Bay [106] calculated the space that would be occupied by a human being having the measurements of proportions of Leonardo Da Vinci's "Vetruvian Man", and concluded that 91,000 corpses with the proportions of the "Vetruvian Man" and an assumed height of 68 inches (1.73 meters) could have fit into 8,502 cubic meters of grave space - 10.7 (11) per cubic meter. (...)



vetruvianman.jpg


To determine (...) estimate the volume displaced by a cadaver (...) the proportions of the body come from DaVinci's drawing of the so called Vetruvian Man (...) The man's statures was assumed to be 68 inches. (...) metric of 3.3 cubic feet as the displacement of the ideal man, (...) the pit (...) total volume would be 8502 cubic meters, or 300,000 cubic feet. Filled to the brim, the grave would hold about N bodies the size of the ideal man:

N = 300,000/3.3 = 91,000

The Vitruvian (not “Vetruvian”) Man proportions study utilizes perfect squares for measurement and do not include the body in profile. Charles A Bay’s adaptation is not an acute study of proportions as made by Leonard Da Vinci. Therefore the Holocaust Controversies author performed his calculation of proportions over an imprecise hypothetical experiment.

vitruvianmanb.jpg



The Charles A Bay hypothetical model has a volume of 0.09346 cubic meters which is equivalent to the inverse volume of 10.7 reciprocal cubic meters:

1/10.7m^-3 = 0.09346 m^3


(...) The ideal weight of a person 1.73 meters high would be 66 kg for men and 62 kg for women. Taking the lower value, 10.7 human bodies with the measurements and weight of an ideal adult person 1.73 meters high would have a weight of 10.7 x 62 = 663.40 kg (...)

Charles A Bay emphasized that his hypothetical “Vetruvian” model was male. Assigning a female average mass to a hypothetical male model to determine proportional volume is deceitful. Charles A Bay‘s model was used to determine the volume occupied by an average male body without regard to mass variation.

(...) for malnourished Polish ghetto Jews (...), the average would be 663.4 ÷ 34 = 19.51 (20) corpses per cubic meter. [107] [p. 418] (...) the space estimated by Kola for the 33 graves he found was 19.51 x 21,310 = 415,758. [108] (...) This is close to the total number of victims of Belzec extermination that is now accepted by historiography, the 434,508 mentioned in the Höfle Report. [109] [p. 419]

1m3x.jpg

Charles A Bay hypothesis estimated an average body of 0.09346 cubic meters:

21310m^3/0.09346m^3 ~ 228012
Charles D Provan’s experiment demonstrated an average body of 0.07158 cubic meters:

21310m^3/0.07158m^3 ~ 297713
Holocaust controversies misused Charles A Bay and Charles D Provan’s results and miscalculated an average body of 0.05125 cubic meters:

21310m^3/0.05125m^3 ~ 415758

104 ‘Gewichtstabelle nach BMI’.

106 Bay, Treblinka, ‘Appendix D - Ash Disposal and Burial Pits (Continued)’

107 With Charles Provan’s test group (Provan, ‘Capacity’), the average would be 663.4 ÷ 33.25 = 19.95 (20). Provan's box had a volume of 21 x 21 x 60.5 = 26,680.50 cubic inches or 0.44 cubic meters, and he managed to squeeze 8 people (including the doll representing a baby) into that space - a concentration of 18.2 per cubic meter. These were living people, and they were "able to breathe just fine" according to Provan, meaning that there was still some space left in the box not filled by their bodies. Provan's photos suggest that the box could have taken in one or two more bodies, at least of children, if the bodies had needed no breathing space because they were dead. The difference between the realistic calculated concentration for an adult+adult+child group of ill-fed or starving Polish Jews (19.51 corpses per cubic meter) and the concentration calculated for Provan's test group with the same reference parameter of 663.40 kg, i.e. 19.95 corpses per cubic meter, is not very big because Provan's test group, while consisting mostly of children, was made up of healthy and well-fed (though not overweight) present-day Americans. Applying Polish ghetto weights to Provan's test-group members (i.e. 43 kg for each of the three adults and 16 kg for each of the five children), the average weight would be [(3x43)+(5x16)]÷8 = 26.13 kg, and the calculated concentration would be 663.40÷26.13 = 25.39 corpses per cubic meter. This means that, if the age and sex distribution of half-starved Polish ghetto Jews deported to Belzec had been like that of Provan's test group, the 21,310 cubic meters of grave space estimated by Kola could have taken in over 540,000 dead bodies.

In Charles D Provan’s experiment the 3 adults had a total mass (a) of 174Kg, 4 children a total mass (b) of 85Kg and 1 toddler a total mass (c) of 7Kg. The average volume of an (x) adult, a (y) child or a (z) toddler inside Charles D Provan’s box is formulated by:

{x = a/(a+b+c)*0.44/3, y = b/(a+b+c)*0.44/4, z = c/(a+b+c)*0.44/1}

{x = 174/(174+85+7)*0.44/3, y = 85/(174+85+7)*0.44/4, z = 7/(174+85+7)*0.44/1}

x~0.0959398, y~0.0351504, z~0.0115789

The formula can be applied to the Holocaust Controversies estimations of 3 adults with a total mass (a) of 129Kg (3*43Kg), 4 children with a total mass (b) of 64Kg (4*16Kg) and 1 toddler with a total mass (c) of 16Kg (1*16Kg):

{x = a/(a+b+c)*0.44/3, y = b/(a+b+c)*0.44/4, z = c/(a+b+c)*0.44/1}

{x = 129/(129+64+16)*0.44/3, y = 64/(129+64+16)*0.44/4, z = 16/(129+64+16)*0.44/1}

x~0.0905263, y~0.0336842, z~0.0336842

Using the Holocaust Controversies distribution of 2 adults and 1 child the total volume of all bodies is:

V = 0.0905263 + 0.0905263 + 0.0336842

V = 0.2147368m^3

The average body volume of 2 adults and 1 child is 0.07158 cubic meters. Thus a 21,310 cubic meters burial pit would hold up to 297,713 bodies of adults and children with an average weight of 34 kilograms.


108 Notwithstanding their claim that 8 bodies per cubic meter is a maximum, Mattogno & Graf seem to conside an even higher density plausible, for in another context they tell their readers that "3,000 bodies take up a volume of about (3,000×0.045 =) 135 m3" (M&G, Treblinka, p. 147). The concentration they are assuming is 3,000 ÷ 135 = 22 bodies per cubic meter.

109 Witte and Tyas, ‘A New Document’.
 
Wtf do you think the SS were going to do in order to get quite clearly necessary sperm samples for control purposes in sterilisation experiments, send the prisoner into a cubicle with a test tube and a Marlene Dietrich pin-up, and ask nicely?

They could hold a gun to their head.



Then please present accurate references to other such survivor testimonies.

Shlomo Venezia
 
So...according to Bay, a human being has sufficient buoyancy to float half-out of the water? Because his figures give an average density of .46 gram/cm^3 -- which is less than ONE HALF the density of water.

Now, I realize irregular objects have a packing density. Ask Roger Penrose about it some time! But a wastage of well over 50% is just ridiculous.
 
They could hold a gun to their head.

Shlomo Venezia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14917160 (diamond, recovered the natural way)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/wilfredo-gonzalez-chicago_n_922412.html (diamond ring)
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/USB-Stick-Swallow-Evidence-Surgery,news-5997.html (flash drive, got stuck apparently)

I still don't believe Zisblatt, though.

Swallowing coins is done so frequently by children that there are about a zillion web pages on it. People have pointed out that gold wouldn't react in the same way as ordinary coins.
 
Of course, brilliant idea! Because nothing helps an erection and a toss off quite like having a loaded gun pointed at one's head :rolleyes:

Given past posts from Dogzilla which showed a disturbing interest in Jewish penises, I'm not sure he is really the best person to be commenting on all this.
 
see Robert Jay Lifton's book Nazi Doctors which is online in full.

Amazing book you cited!

Let's read the introdction:

Introduction: “This World Is Not This World”

Wow!

Philosophical idiocy in short words.

One more example of hack writer...

Yet I make no claim to a comprehensive historical study of all Nazi doctors, or of the medical profession in general during the Third Reich. I often wished I had had access to such a study, as it would have greatly lessened the extensive digging into archives and trial documents in various parts of the world that my assistants and I had to undertake. (...) A compensation perhaps for my very limited knowledge of languages involved (German, Hebrew, Yiddish, Polish, and French) was the breadth of this nourishing network that took shape.

(...)

I gained an important perspective on Auschwitz from an Israeli dentist who had spent three years in that camp. (...) He looked about the comfortable room in his house with its beautiful view of Haifa, sighed deeply, and said, “This world is not this world.” What I think he meant was that, after Auschwitz, the ordinary rhythms and appearances of life, however innocuous or pleasant, were far from the truth of human existence. (...)
 
this is a complete diversion from the fact the crime occured, standard denier tricks

Attack one or two accounts in a vain effort to discredit the whole series of accounts and documentation

Which crimes are you referring?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom