Merged 9/11 No Plane/Energy Weapon discussion thread

[Resume]

Haha. What kind of children's story uses concepts like molecules?

Yes, I suppose for some the word molecule might be a serious ponderment.

 

[Resume]

I prefer to focus on the survivors.

Not very much I might point out. Your fantasy dustify/foamify "model" denies the reality of those deaths, disrespects the surviving families of the lost on those flights.

 

[dafydd]

Haha. What kind of children's story uses concepts like molecules?

A story written by Judy Wood. I have added her site to my collection of hogwash science sites.

 

[sts60]

If the towers turned to dust why was there any seismic signals?

Let me fix that for you:

"If the towers turned to dust, why did they actually not turn to dust?"

Never mind the seismic signals, the sheer unadulterated craziness of "no-planes" and the appeals to magic holograms, the failure to even define what sort of "energy weapon" was supposedly used, or the handwaving on where it was, or the absolute lack of any evidence for one, or the multiple quantitative analyses showing the infeasibility of any directed-energy weapon destroying the WTC in the first place.

Never mind the deep and wide-ranging incompetence displayed by Wood and her groupies, their handwaving about distant hurricanes, their contempt for the victims of the attacks, their laughable "evidence" of random window ledge sweepings and obsession with certain companies, and their failure to grasp, let alone apply, any of the relevant scientific principles.

All that is moot. The simple fact is that while a lot of wallboard and concrete got smashed and a lot of things burned, generating a great deal of dust and smoke - as a whole the towers simply did not turn to dust (or the equally idiotic "foam"). The vast majority of the structural steel was recovered in solid form, and sorted along with the rest of about two million tons of debris from the WTC site.

There is no further point in indulging the attention-seeking ravings of those who claim "the towers were turned to dust". They weren't.

 

[twinstead]

There is no further point in indulging the attention-seeking ravings of those who claim "the towers were turned to dust". They weren't.

I for one am amused at just how much of an epic failure a theory it is that relies on an event that never happened as its starting point.

 

[rambaldi]

If the towers turned to dust why was there any seismic signals?

Why stop at making up the weapon itself when you can also attribute every required sideeffects, so obviously it is a natural effect of the dustifier beam.

 

[WTC Dust]

Not very much I might point out. Your fantasy dustify/foamify "model" denies the reality of those deaths, disrespects the surviving families of the lost on those flights.

I'm not talking about the family members of those who died on 9/11. I'm talking about the men and women who worked Ground Zero after the attacks who are now suffering from things ordinary fires don't cause.

And by ordinary, I don't mean "big". I mean "stuff that isn't found in an ordinary fire". Like iron oxide.

Do you have any evidence of a wake at 9:03AM? I keep asking for it.

 

[Resume]

I'm not talking about the family members of those who died on 9/11. I'm talking about the men and women who worked Ground Zero after the attacks who are now suffering from things ordinary fires don't cause.

They didn't fight an ordinary fire.

And by ordinary, I don't mean "big". I mean "stuff that isn't found in an ordinary fire". Like iron oxide.

Bare assertion.

Do you have any evidence of a wake at 9:03AM? I keep asking for it.

It's been explained to you. I can't force your comprehension.

 

[SUSpilot]

Wow. You say you're a pilot? First, can you show me evidence that any plane of that nature flew that fast that close to the ground? I don't think you can.

According to the FAA, I'm a pilot. They even let me teach people how to fly. Not to brag, but I've even gotten a couple of nice awards from them.

Alright, I'll lower the bar for you. Show me the visible air disturbance behind any transport category aircraft, turbine or piston, at any true airspeed given the temperature and dew point that was present in NYC at 1300Z on 9/11/01.
For what it's worth, at KJFK* it was 23 degrees C, with a dew point of 13 degrees C.

*No, that is not a typo - that is the official the ICAO identifier for Kennedy International.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

The vast majority of the structural steel was recovered in solid form, and sorted along with the rest of about two million tons of debris from the WTC site.

That tonnage sounds about right. I've read reports of 1.2 to 1.4 million tons, but we're more or less in the same ballpark. I've read that the mass of the individual towers themselves is about 500,000 tons. That seems right - it agrees closely with the recovery reports: About 1 million tons for the Twin Towers themselves, some amount for 7 World Trade, some more allowance for interior contents... it's only a rough estimate, but post collapse figures are mostly in line with the ones about their construction.

Anyway... the sheer amount of material having to be cut apart - yes, literally, "cut apart"; that's where we get the photos of those steel cutters at work (click on "WTC" on the left of that page) - alone gives lie to the claims that the buildings themselves were turned to dust. That's an amazing amount of steel work that needed to be done for a "dustified" building.

Anyway... for anyone interested - and honest about learning; this info is wasted on conspiracy fantasists - Mark Roberts put together a series of links about the cleanup effort. They can be found here:
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/groundzerocleanup%2Cfreshkillssortingopera

(Of course, STS60 already knows about this, and has known about it for years. I'm aiming this at anyone else who may not be aware of Mark's resource site.)

Simple reading of the publicly available information Mark gathered for us also gives weight to the narrative about the effort required to clean up Ground Zero. They weren't just shoveling dust there, not by a long shot.

There is no further point in indulging the attention-seeking ravings of those who claim "the towers were turned to dust". They weren't.

Yes. I agree. We could always use their material to teach ourselves how to think critically and spot flawed reasoning - as well as to launch from their claims into a study of what really happened - but STS is right: Giving the conspiracy advocates themselves any argument accomplishes nothing. It's 2012, and they've had plenty of time to figure out the truth. The most you can do if you do choose to engage them - folly at best, but I won't dictate behavior - is point them at accurate information. If they are unable to properly analyze it, that's their problem.

 

[alienentity]

Dr Dust will not answer you, Sus. What she doesn't know about (a vast, incalculable sum) she will deflect away from, comforting herself that she obtained an advanced degree in Pharmacology and knows how to get attention by pushing people's buttons. That's what she wants out of life, apparently - to occupy some of the most inane and senseless positions, to throw away good science and generally waste her life.

 

[alienentity]

In other words, don't let this person waste your life too. Let her sink to the bottom by herself.

That is why I am not replying to her neurotic baiting tactics anymore. It's just not worth the time, PhD or not.

Cave Troll, PhD...

 

[WTC Dust]

According to the FAA, I'm a pilot. They even let me teach people how to fly. Not to brag, but I've even gotten a couple of nice awards from them.

Alright, I'll lower the bar for you. Show me the visible air disturbance behind any transport category aircraft, turbine or piston, at any true airspeed given the temperature and dew point that was present in NYC at 1300Z on 9/11/01.
For what it's worth, at KJFK* it was 23 degrees C, with a dew point of 13 degrees C.

*No, that is not a typo - that is the official the ICAO identifier for Kennedy International.

Why are you mentioning such specific weather information?

 

[Stellafane]

...Man has in his hands a method of disrupting the molecular basis for matter and the ability to split the earth in half on a moments notice...The technology that was demonstrated on 911 can split the earth in half or it can be used to allow ALL people to live happily ever after with free energy..."

Shucks, really? The part about "disrupting the molecular basis" I can sort of understand, hell it can be argued that I do that myself every time I draw in a breath. But split the earth in half? On a moment's notice? Who knew? And as hard as that may be for the likes of me to get my mind around, it's nothing compared to the fact that (in violation of everything anyone's ever known about physics) at the root of this unimaginable capacity for destruction is...and pardon me as I pause to compose myself before continuing...free energy!!

Of course, if even part of this were remotely true, then the government of the USA is by far the most incompetent in the history of ever. Consider: If we had such a weapon, why are we fooling around with bombs and tanks and such? We can simply blast anyone off the face of the planet who doesn't say "Yes Sir!!" fast enough or with the requisite fervor. We could establish a world empire by this time tomorrow, a Pax Americana that due to our incomparable technological superiority we can make last forever if we're so inclined.

And even if due to some ethical or moral qualms we don't choose to use such a weapon, how about the free energy thing? After all, the only reason we ever meddle in world affairs is because of oil, right? If we didn't need it, the Middle East would be of no more interest or use to us than Baffin Island. Not only that, free energy would allow us to eliminate our energy costs, immediately rendering us the world's greatest economic power, vastly ahead of all the rest of the world combined, enjoying 100% employment and a standard of living that would utterly shame the most decadent Gilded Agers and make them feel like destitute paupers.

And yet, what do we do with this stupendous power? Why, we use it once -- on ourselves!!! -- and then store it away, for what is now over a decade and counting, never to be used again. Why?? Why oh why oh why are we so incredibly stupid?

Yet somehow, in Dr. Wood's world view this all makes sense. I suspect, however, that she and her supporters haven't thought things through quite that far yet. Oh well, like I said it's only been 10 years. Give it another decade or two and perhaps they'll get around to considering some of these questions.

 

[WTC Dust]

This thread should probably be closed due to the question having been answered.

To sum up: Not a single person has posted clear evidence of a wake at 9:03AM.

Last chance, people.

 

[alienentity]

Ah yes, always answer a question with another question. That's a fairly transparent evasion tactic.

Oh well, nothing new to see here. No information, just waves of bare assertions and blanket denials. Typical truther fair with a PhD twist, really. Yawn...

 

[X]

Why are you mentioning such specific weather information?

Why do you mention such a specific time, and ignore the posts showing you clear evidence of an aircraft's passage because it wasn't at 9:03 am?

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It's a bit more complicated than that. I've heard and read JW postulating/claiming more than a few times that the DEW was situated in space. I can dig out the sources if anyone needs confirmation.

It was only after she was widely ridiculed (by all of a rational mind and nearly all truthers) summarily kicked/laughed out of Scholars for 9-11 Truth and into the arms of Jim Fetzer that she seems to have backed away from that particular idiotic claim.

As if the "space-based" part of her fantasy was the only thing wrong with it...

 

[Resume]

This thread should probably be closed due to the question having been answered.

To sum up: Not a single person has posted clear evidence of a wake at 9:03AM.

Last chance, people.

It's been explained to you. I can't force your comprehension.

Still can't.

 

[TSR]

To sum up: Not a single person has posted clear evidence of a wake at 9:03AM.

Nor have you made a rational case that such evidence should exist, and be accorded more weight than all of the other evidence which should and does exist in support of the Towers having been crashed into by AA and UA.