General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[tsig]

Your map plus fact sheet said 4,515,000 Jewish people were killed in those camps.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust says 6,000,000 total



Yet Hilberg in the 1998 Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia under the heading Holocaust declares the number of Jews killed in the SIX camps was 2.8 million.

“Chelmno had gas vans, and its death toll was 150,000; Belzec had carbon monoxide gas chambers in which 600,000 Jews were killed; Sobibor’s gas chambers accounted for 250,000 dead; Treblinka’s for 700,000 to 800,000; At Majdanek, some 50,000 were gassed or shot; and in Auschwitz, the Jewish dead totaled more than 1 million.”

Counselor for the defense says:

My client is innocent of killing six million since the evidence shows he only killed 2.8 million.

 

[swright777]

Counselor for the defense says:

My client is innocent of killing six million since the evidence shows he only killed 2.8 million.

Oh. Case dismissed!

 

[gabeygoat]

Counselor for the defense says:

My client is innocent of killing six million since the evidence shows he only killed 2.8 million.

 

[Marras]

No, it did not.

This was perhaps the historical first time, but this time Clayton Moore was right about something. The webpage does really and actually say that 4,515,000 were killed in death camps, it's the total of the columns in the 'Timeline for Nazi Extermination Camps' table. (The page also has a table 'Auschwitz - How Many Were Murdered?' whose total columns contain figures that bear only a slight resemblance to the numbers in the data columns.)

Not the best possible page to link to, in my opinion. Going one page up in the URL of the page shows that it's located in a seemingly forgotten homepage of a faculty member of the sociology department of the Middle Tennessee State University, created in 1996 and last updated in 1998. There's even an 'under construction' gif, haven't seen one of those in the wild since the 90s.

 

[TSR]

This was perhaps the historical first time, but this time Clayton Moore was right about something. The webpage does really and actually say that 4,515,000 were killed in death camps, it's the total of the columns in the 'Timeline for Nazi Extermination Camps' table. (The page also has a table 'Auschwitz - How Many Were Murdered?' whose total columns contain figures that bear only a slight resemblance to the numbers in the data columns.)

Not the best possible page to link to, in my opinion. Going one page up in the URL of the page shows that it's located in a seemingly forgotten homepage of a faculty member of the sociology department of the Middle Tennessee State University, created in 1996 and last updated in 1998. There's even an 'under construction' gif, haven't seen one of those in the wild since the 90s.

That table includes Stutthof, which is not one of "those camps" CM was tasked with identifying.

And the Auschwitz table includes non-Jews.

CM was not right, zir record is flawless in this regard.

 

[Clayton Moore]

This was perhaps the historical first time, but this time Clayton Moore was right about something. The webpage does really and actually say that 4,515,000 were killed in death camps, it's the total of the columns in the 'Timeline for Nazi Extermination Camps' table. (The page also has a table 'Auschwitz - How Many Were Murdered?' whose total columns contain figures that bear only a slight resemblance to the numbers in the data columns.)

Not the best possible page to link to, in my opinion. Going one page up in the URL of the page shows that it's located in a seemingly forgotten homepage of a faculty member of the sociology department of the Middle Tennessee State University, created in 1996 and last updated in 1998. There's even an 'under construction' gif, haven't seen one of those in the wild since the 90s.

Good catch. Almost 7 decades later the Holocaust myth is still under construction.

 

[000063]

Your map plus fact sheet said 4,515,000 Jewish people were killed in those camps.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust says 6,000,000 total



Yet Hilberg in the 1998 Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia under the heading Holocaust declares the number of Jews killed in the SIX camps was 2.8 million.

“Chelmno had gas vans, and its death toll was 150,000; Belzec had carbon monoxide gas chambers in which 600,000 Jews were killed; Sobibor’s gas chambers accounted for 250,000 dead; Treblinka’s for 700,000 to 800,000; At Majdanek, some 50,000 were gassed or shot; and in Auschwitz, the Jewish dead totaled more than 1 million.”

Feel free to use a 15-year old encyclopedia and to pretend that the camps were the only places the historical narrative claims Jews were killed.

Good catch. Almost 7 decades later the Holocaust myth is still under construction.

Well, which is it? Is the 1998 Encarta authoritative, or is Wikipedia today?

Snap!

These one-liners aren't clever and make no real point. In this case, no point at all.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What crack are you smoking?

No one needed to be convinced to set up museum space to deal with WWII. It was probably the biggest world-wide sociological and cultural event of the 20th century. In Canada alone it had far reaching sociological effects with over 10% of the total population in the military during the war, the effects of urban shift and industrialization, and the recognition that the old racist attitudes were just not right.

The small scale acts, when contrasted to Nazi Germany's actions, of the Italian and Japanese internments were minor but this society was able to look at them and see where they could lead and did not like that and began to move away from that mindset. The old ideas are not all gone but are not anywhere near as prevalent or strong.

The holocaust happened, the Nazis committed a long term and extensive program to isolate the groups they deemed to be unworthy of Germany or the twisted idea they had of it, and to eventually remove them from any possibility of "corrupting" the "German-ness" of that society.

Denying the Holocaust is in the same vein as denying the Highland Clearances or the Potato Famine only more so as there is plenty more evidence to back up the Holocaust.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Snap!

These one-liners aren't clever and make no real point. In this case, no point at all.

Border Reiver nailed the Holocaust. Plain and simple. 46 words. Kudos.

 

[Dcdrac]

Cm Boarderiver is not supporting your fantasy at all quite the oppsite in fact.

you have demonstrated in this thread and others that you have no knowledge nor any ability to research anything you comment on whether it is this subject or the vaccine thread, all you have shown is an ability to trawl through the internet and a high level of guillibility at best or a disingenous attempt to hide your agenda at worst.

 

[Border Reiver]

Snap!

Is that intended as an actual rebuttal or a "snap, I've just realized I'm wrong and should own up to my error like an adult?"

 

[000063]

Good one, BR.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Snap!





Border Reiver nailed the Holocaust. Plain and simple. 46 words. Kudos.

So you accept only those 46 words? Because BR is against revisionism. And, of course, you completely ignored his larger point; there doesn't need to be any sort of "conspiracy" to devote museum space to the Holocaust, since it was part of the most significant war of the 20th century, possibly ever.

 

[Marras]

Good catch. Almost 7 decades later the Holocaust myth is still under construction.

No, after 16 years the web site of a sociologist is still under construction. That's a completely different thing altogether.

If you had read Nick Terry's posts, you would know what is the main reason why the figure on the linked page is so much larger than the figures that come from Hilberg: its figure for Majdanek are based on early estimates that wildly exaggerated the death toll of that particular camp.

In this case you were given a link to a web page that isn't particularly good: written by a sociologist (instead of a historian) who was not good with either numbers or HTML tables. In my mind the most interesting thing in all this is that you went the trouble of reading enough of it to find that its numbers disagree with the currently-accepted figures. If you read or at least skim poor links given to you, why don't you read the good links that people like Terry post?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Is that intended as an actual rebuttal or a "snap, I've just realized I'm wrong and should own up to my error like an adult?"

Snap. I agree with your synopsis of the Holocaust.

The holocaust happened, the Nazis committed a long term and extensive program to isolate the groups they deemed to be unworthy of Germany or the twisted idea they had of it, and to eventually remove them from any possibility of "corrupting" the "German-ness" of that society.

 

[Multivac]

They weren't actually gathering Jewish seed qua Jewish seed. That particular experiment was part of the top secret Nazi Fleshlight program. They just needed post-puberty male human subjects--Jewish, Black, even French--it didn't matter. Their subject just happened to be Jewish because there were so many Jews that the Nazis hadn't gotten around to killing yet.

I am struggling to believe that even a Hitler hugger could post such disrespectful crap.

 

[Multivac]

They gathered CO2 in forest and took out one of the Os. I think an old submarine or tank engine they had laying around was used to power the O-remover.

Pathetic.

 

[Marras]

That table includes Stutthof, which is not one of "those camps" CM was tasked with identifying.

That is unreasonable nitpicking in my opinion, something more suitable for coming from someone in the denier side. The figures from the page put the number of death camp victims to roughly 4.5 million while Hilberg put it to around 2.8 million. That is a genuine discrepancy that has to be explained. Of course, it can and it even has been explained on this thread and its predecessor repeatedly: the early estimates were Majdanek's death toll were way too high (Austin's figure for Chelmno is also on the high side).

And the Auschwitz table includes non-Jews.

Let me reproduce the table here for convenience to show what's wrong with it:

              Gassed on | Registered prisoners |        Total    
Nationality | arrival   | Total     | Died     | Survived | Deaths    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jews        |   890,000 |   205,000 |   95,000 |  110,000 |   985,000 |
Poles       |    10,000 |   137,000 |   64,000 |   73,000 |    74,000 |
Romany      |     2,000 |     2,000 |   21,000 |    2,000 |    21,000 | 
Sovier POWs |     3,000 |    12,000 |   12,000 |  ---     |    15,000 | 
Other       |    25,000 |    12,000 |   13,000 |          |    13,000 |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals      |   905,000 |   400,000 |  202,000 |  198,000 | 1,208,000 |

Note how the numbers in the 'gassed on arrival' column don't actually sum to 905,000 but instead to 930,000. The most likely explanation for this is that the author put the 'other' row one column too left and that it should have been 25,000 registered, 12,000 died, and 13,000 survived (the total deaths column uses the 13,000, however). The second oddity is that 21,000 Roma out of 2,000 registered died. The registered Roma entry should probably have read 23,000. The deaths total of the same row is missing the 2,000 gassed on arrival. Another oddity is the assertion that all registered Soviet POWs died that seems quite unlikely to me, though, I'm most definitely not an expert on the subject.

One final thing there is that the numbers in the total deaths column sum to 1,108,000, not 1.2 million.

There are plenty of good pages about the Holocaust on the internet. There's no need to link to a bad one that happens to be high on the google listings just because it has been online for 15 years.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Read this CM and see where you fit in

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n3/holodeni.html

Number of words: 8174 + How, indeed.


Sorry. The antisemetic whine is never ending. It gets old. The only contact a large majority of people have with Jewish people is the endless barrage of articles whining about alleged antisemitism. Propaganda to make any criticism of people who happen to be Jewish is a criticism of Jewish people because they are Jewish.

8174 words of propaganda crapola.

 

[Cyrix686]

37 words of confusing circular thinking denier crapola.

 

[SnakeTongue]

I've asked before and I'd still like you to answer these questions:
When you asked DDT on April 16 "How that is documented" was his comment the first time you became aware of that aspect of the final solution?

Yes, it was the first time I became aware of the persecution of Dutch Jews.

Were you really unaware of the methods used when on April 13 you asked Dafydd: "How the Jews were identified? What procedures the supposedly persecutors used to identify who was Jew and who was not? There was any kind of a "Manual to Recognize Jews" utilized by the SS personnel?"

Yes, I was really unaware.

(...) When I asked if there was any connection I didn't expect you to look no further than the other paragraphs of the same document but to evaluate those documents themselves in relationship to each other as well. (...) Harster, Zoepf and Slotke were convicted for Beihilfe zum Mord for their role in that part of the final Solution for which they were in part responsible. Their records from the Netherlands do indeed provide evidence that deportation resulted in mass murder - when evaluated by sane observers.

Deportation is not to mass murdering.

deportation

noun
the action of deporting a foreigner from a country:
asylum seekers facing deportation
[as modifier]:
a deportation order
mass deportations took place over many months
​

I asked about the 5.5.1942 letter in part because I was hoping that researching it would take you to the web site of het Joods Historisch Museum. Have you found your way there? (...)

Yes.

 

[SnakeTongue]

The "hack" part comes from what other, real historians of the Third Reich think about Irving's body of work.

"Disdained writer" is probably putting it rather mildly.

Did you read any book wrote by David Irving?

Disdained and seen with contempt because Hack because he promotes a political agenda without regard to accuracy and thus produces books, speeches, and articles that are worthless for historical understanding.

Did you read any book wrote by David Irving?